[Campaignforrealdemocracy] 'Wealth' Discussion Fwd: [project2012] Re: Statement about Economics & Real Democracy

Thu Aug 6 13:15:52 BST 2009

Quick comment: think you've nearly cracked it, but land is so integral
to economic wealth I think the definition should begin "Land, natural
substances and??? products..............."

Brian Orr

On 6 Aug 2009, at 11:03, Robin Smith wrote:

> OK here goes. Wealth in the economic sense is:-
>
> "Natural substances or products that have been adapted by human labour
> to render them capable for human use or gratification."
>
> If this is acceptable, we can proceed to what is meant by the term
> "Value". Else please state using logic and reason why you disagree.
>
> A point to think carefully about is that nothing can be wealth unless
> humans have done something with it first. We MUST do work to create
> wealth. Natural resources just lying there can only become wealth once
> we have worked on them.
>
> Brgds
>
>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Robin Smith <robinsmith3 at googlemail.com>
>> To: Mark Barrett <marknbarrett at googlemail.com>
>> Cc: campaignforrealdemocracy at lists.aktivix.org
>> Sent: Wednesday, 5 August, 2009 18:58:26
>> Subject: Re: [Campaignforrealdemocracy] 'Wealth' Discussion Fwd:
>> [project2012] Re: Statement about Economics & Real Democracy
>>
>> Why create new and confusing terms. When we already have perfectly  
>> adequate
>> ones
>>
>> Natural wealth cannot be wealth in the economic sense. No one created
>> it. No economy was required for it to exist.
>>
>> To avoid confusion shall we stick to plain old fasioned "wealth".
>> Otherwise we may stray into areas such as declaring "slaves" as
>> natural wealth.
>>
>> I'm hoping to show that wealth in the economic sense can only be
>> things that are made through labour, using natural resources.
>>
>> Brgds
>>
>> 2009/8/4 Mark Barrett <marknbarrett at googlemail.com>:
>>> Here's Dave Wetzel's take on the question. Can we build a statement
>>> around it?
>>>
>>> -------------
>>> How about considering man-made wealth and natural wealth?
>>>
>>> The former includes buildings, clothes, tools, computers, furniture,
>>> vehicles, machinnery etc.
>>>
>>> The latter includes, land, the spectrum, the seas and oceans, sea- 
>>> life,
>>> plants, wildlife, oil, gas, coal, wood and water.
>>>
>>> Capital is man-made wealth used for producing more wealth. So  
>>> factories,
>>> warehouses, offices, machinery, craftsmen's tools are  all capital.
>>>
>>> consider a bicycle for sale in a cycle shop window - it is man- 
>>> made wealth
>>> and is capital.
>>> If the purchaser uses it for pleasure  - it is man-made wealth but  
>>> not
>>> capital - it is a consumer good.
>>> However, a bicycle used by a window cleaner for his business is  
>>> capital.
>>>
>>> Land is natural wealth. All land value should belong to the  
>>> community -
>>> not
>>> landowners.
>>>
>>> 2009/8/4 Mark Barrett <marknbarrett at googlemail.com>
>>>>
>>>> FYI see below.
>>>> Does  anyone else feel like putting forward their own definition of
>>>> wealth?
>>>>
>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>> Hi Robin
>>>>
>>>> I like the idea you've put forward, of doing a statement that  
>>>> even a
>>>> child
>>>> can understand. With justice in this context aren't we talking  
>>>> about the
>>>> ideal of "economic democracy" ?
>>>>
>>>> Democratic justice being about equal rights to share
>>>> in power, including political-economic power..
>>>>
>>>> About wealth: isn't the earth and its various resources,  
>>>> including the
>>>> people who inhabit it and their productions the primary human  
>>>> treasury?
>>>> In
>>>> my view these real resources should be conserved, and wherever
>>>> possible used appropriately ie to the furtherance of equality,  
>>>> justice,
>>>> ecological stewardship and spiritual well being. Of course  
>>>> individual
>>>> endeavour must be rewarded, but also, somehow, the benefits of  
>>>> humanity's
>>>> collective work, and the basic value of the whole earth should be  
>>>> shared
>>>> equally as a basic starting point.
>>>>
>>>> And isn't that where LVT comes in?
>>>>
>>>> As Winstanley put it, better than almost anyone "the earth is a  
>>>> common
>>>> treasury for all". [Or, "the meek shall inherit the earth"] ;
>>>>
>>>> Are we both talking about the commonwealth?  I am just guessing,  
>>>> am no
>>>> expert.
>>>>
>>>> How would others describe wealth? Robin, what is your answer or  
>>>> statement
>>>> regarding (1)?
>>>>
>>>> Cheers, Mark
>>>> PS I will forward this discussion to the Project 2011 list to see  
>>>> what
>>>> others come up with.
>>>> 2009/8/4 Robin Smith <robinsmith3 at googlemail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> Certainly can. Though myself I'm looking for a "just" society  
>>>>> first
>>>>> and foremost.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) On Economics: The nature of wealth and how it is produced and
>>>>> distributed, for all. Economic justice
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) On Land Value: This is a subset of economic justice. This is  
>>>>> very
>>>>> simple once we have agreed on 1)
>>>>>
>>>>> Shall we start by defining what we mean by "wealth"? I'd like to  
>>>>> hear
>>>>> what you all have to say about that?
>>>>>
>>>>> Brgds
>>>>>
>>>>> 2009/8/4 Mark Barrett <marknbarrett at googlemail.com>:
>>>>>> Dear Robin
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please can we start drafting a statement about economics and land
>>>>>> value,
>>>>>> here, as you see it, in relation to how this will make for a  
>>>>>> really
>>>>>> democratic society?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Campaignforrealdemocracy mailing list
>>>>>> Campaignforrealdemocracy at lists.aktivix.org
>>>>>> https://lists.aktivix.org/mailman/listinfo/campaignforrealdemocracy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Best Wishes,
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>> Dave Wetzel – CEO
>>>> "Transforming Communities".
>>>> Sustainable Transport Policies ▪ Public Finance with Social  
>>>> Inclusion ▪
>>>> Affordable Housing ▪ Economic Land Policies with Justice.
>>>>
>>>> Tel: 0208 568 9004
>>>> Intl:+44 208 568 9004
>>>>
>>>> Mobile/Cellphone: 07715 32 29 26
>>>> Intl: +44 7715 32 29 26
>>>>
>>>> e-mail: davewetzel42 at googlemail.com
>>>>
>>>> 40 Adelaide Terrace. Great West Road.
>>>> Brentford. LONDON. TW8 9PQ. UK
>>>> Web: www.LabourLand.org
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> "We hear men speaking for us of new laws strong and sweet /Yet is  
>>> there no
>>> man speaketh as we speak in the street.”
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Economics Comment
>> http://gco2e.blogspot.com/
>>
>> Work
>> http://www.systemicfiscalreform.org/
>>
>> About Me
>> http://fon.gs/robinsmithme/
>>
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>
>
>
> -- 
> Economics Comment
> http://gco2e.blogspot.com/
>
> Work
> http://www.systemicfiscalreform.org/
>
> About Me
> http://fon.gs/robinsmithme/
>
> _______________________________________________
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