[Campaignforrealdemocracy] [Dem-Village] we the people + Athenian democracy
Mark Barrett
marknbarrett at googlemail.com
Thu Dec 16 14:47:06 UTC 2010
Hi James
Great to see this research work going on. One of the decisions last Saturday
at the PA Movement Building meeting was to start a "PA politics and
economics" working group to develop ideas together. Maybe you could post the
stuff on the Wiki page we've set up as a bit of historical background to
inform the development of our draft principles ? Let me know what you think
- would be great to have you in the team. Also everyone else welcome to put
forward their interest in this, or any of the other working groups coming
out of last Saturday's meeting. Minutes to follow, and here are a list of
tsome of the PA working groups (all are welcome to join any of them) set up
and to some extent already operating so far:
(1) PA Politics and Economics (developing hallmarks, guidelines, principles
of PAs and putting them out for endorsement to other groups)
(2) PA Website (developing www.peoplesassemblies.org into a fab resource
showing PAs going on all over the world, continent and UK. Listed by
politics, themes, links to actions. And to work colloboratively to develop
their politics. And to publicise direct actions and future PA movement
building events. And to host forums. And to improve comms across
different PAs. Etc etc.)
(3) PA Dual Power (see below)
Operation Dual Power
Callout for
Working Group on Building People’s Assemblies
Meeting to launch Operation Dual Power
Sat Jan 8/Sun Jan 9, 3 to 6 p.m. both days, prompt start please
St Martin’s Community Centre, 43 Carol St NW1 0HT
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=NW1%200HT
close to Camden Town tube, hot drinks and food available
The TUC are calling a huge march for Sat March 26,
March for the Alternative
http://www.tuc.org.uk/theme/index.cfm?theme=alltogether
But what is the alternative?
We doubt the TUC bureaucrats have much idea, but the people who have been in
direct action on the streets at Millbank, in Vodaphone and Topshop, in uni
and college occupations, against tuition fee rises and the EMA cuts, and
local government cuts at Town Halls across the country – they have the right
idea!
We need to seize the spaces where people can gather into direct democracy
decision-making bodies – People’s Assemblies. We need to challenge the
legitimacy of this feeble and hated Con-Dem government by establishing
alternative sovereignty in as many key locations as possible.
We think by March 26, with the galvanic student movement, and the looming
Eurozone crisis, a strong majority of rank-and-file trade unionists will NOT
be satisfied by a march from A to B, or footprints going round in circles,
as the TUC march logo has it!
We propose a map of direct action targets for March 26 (media, education,
local and national govt buildings, bank branches, courts, police stations,
libraries) to be seized and occupied as seats of the sovereign populace,
including any places, space or agencies that should be held accountable to
their local communities. We, the people, should be making the decisions
about how to share our commonwealth.
Email contact: Meltdown2017 at gmail.com
This is a working group of peoplesassemblies.org
(4) PA facilitation skills (training etc) - still being worked out
(5) Some others but I need to go back to the Minutes but I can't now as am
at work!
(6) Here's some Feedback on Dec 11:
Sent: 15 December 2010 12:22
To: info at aworldtowin.net
Subject: Peoples Asemblies meeting
Thank you for the opportunity to attend the meeting on Saturday at Birkbeck.
I had to leave at the strat of the third session on Action Planning but will
be interested to hear of the decisions made in the minutes.
I would also like to thank (I think Mark - but not sure) the guy who
introduced the meeting and his attempt to create some structure to the
proceedings. I think it would have been very difficult if some preparatory
work had not been done. I think he got the balance right in trying not to
overstep the mark in being too directional for a democratic event.
I think I came away from the meeting a bit confused. Given the amount of
time this had been on the horizon, it seemed to me that things are likely to
happen too fast for such a meeting/central body to respond to.
The focus of the body would be better served to facilitate the various
oppositional groups and Peoples Assemblies around the country, using the
website to spread information about 'events', demo's etc. Also to be aplace
to go to to find out information/advice about the legality/illegality of
various types of action (e.g. picketing by non-union members or even people
not employed by an organisation in support of a strike; how to get a
referendum on council cuts etc etc)
In the Italian revolution against Austrian control, Carlo Pisacane
criticised Mazzini and the National Committee for acting like an alternative
government and pretending it had authority over the local revolutionary
committees. Its purpose instead should have been to organise the spread of
propaganda, co-ordinate the different groups, facilitate local actions, fund
where possible those actions considered to have the potential for success
(Carlo Pisacane 'La Rivoluzione'). I feel that is the direction Peoples
Assemblies should take. Each locality will have its own and take its own
action, the centre will publicise and increase the support and co-ordinate
action ewhere this would increase leverage. Itshould (as agreed on Saturday)
be entirely inclusive.
Richard Roberts
HUNTINGDON
On 15 December 2010 18:48, james armstrong <james36armstrong at hotmail.com>wrote:
> Great work Alison,
> I have downloaded the draft cabinet manual- It is 144 pages long.
> When I first read it I was looking for "The People" in this blue-print for
> a 'democracy' and 'the people' virtually dont figure!
> and certianly not 'the Soveriegn people' Can someone tell me how to convert
> to a word document as I want to compress it before printing it.? IN
> Athens 'the People' (demes) were explicitly sovereign.
> James
> In themeantime I have been swatting up on the Athenian democracy (also
> flawed (men only and pro-slavery)
> but it is a starting point for reform.
> Here are some questions raised. As an aid to our self-education here are
> some extracts :-
>
> Cleisthenes re-organised the Athenian citizenry into ten tribes, breaking
> down the tribal loyalties among the aristocrats which had been making life
> difficult for ordinary people,.each tribe chose by lot, fifty councilors to
> serve on the boule (council of 500) and one strategos (general) .
>
> The strategos also had political influence and could summon the assembly
> and address it before anyone else could speak.
>
> The term of the strategos was one year long, but it could be renewed and
> often was at the next election. The Persian wars suggested to the
> Athenians that the job of strategos was the really significant one, and
> that it would be a safe democratic measure to begin selecting the archons by
> lot.
>
> Combined with terms of a single year, the use of the lot to select
> officials was to become one of the most important devices by which the
> Athenians blocked the development of a self-interested political elite.
>
> A check on individual ambition was also provided by the curious procedure
> known as ostracism. – this was a ballot to decide whether any citizen should
> be banished to preserve order in the state. The man with the most votes
> against was compelled to leave the state or ten years. He was not
> accused of any crime and after the period he could return and take up his
> rights. By this inverse popularity contest the Athenians sought to
> prevent tyranny and provided redress other than civil war. For those
> occasions when two or more men locked horns over the best policy for the
> state. The Athenians could recall someone before the term was up. …………
> Thucydides trs Walter Blanco (Intro)
>
>
>
> Questions arising from “Thucydides and Alfred Zimmern’s` book, ”The
> Greek Commonwealth”
>
> (Topics that need consideration) What light does Zimmern’s work throw
> on the questions-
>
> - What are the failings of UK’s parliamentary democracy in 2010?
>
> n What were the failings of Athenian democracy 410?
>
> - What insights can we gather from Zimmern’s book?
>
> - What other arrangements are required for designing a democracy
> suitable for the future of UK and the world?
>
> Some points to consider
>
> 1 How was democracy introduced into Athens and how
> can we introduce D in UK?
>
> 2 We note Z’s warning against sham democracy “It
> is foolish to think that occasionally voting is D”
>
> *3 *How did Cleisthenes (C) overcome resistance? How
> benefit from existing structures? How introduce change?
>
> *4 *Note the use of invented myths and religion and
> loyalties. Huge effort went into designing a structure of associations
> , etc
>
> *5 *Dividing into small sub committees , And
> selection of eligible candidates by lottery answers the charge that a
> huge gathering will bring chaos.
>
> *6 *Existing structures were left in position by
> C.where they did not interfere with the new, but they were left to wither.
>
> *7 *Centralisation was important
>
> *8 *The whole process took time – 100 years?
>
> *9 * People like associating, and C used this to his
> advantage.
>
> *10 *The ‘deme’ was made powerful when it raised taxes
>
> *11 *The local demes supplied manpower for central
> government jobs. Work, not voting was at the heart of the D system
>
> *12 *Local deme’s sent a local mayor to be part of the
> central council .
>
> *13 *There is a huge potential in this system for removing
> class differences and privilege
>
> *14 *Where does the present monopoly of land ownership
> in UK fit in to the new system? Does it negate democracy? And how to end
> it?
>
> *15 *The principle which justifies amateurs in parliament
> is that knowledge of the people is the key requirement not knowledge of law
> nor of knowledge of facts.
>
> *16 *The people is sovereign so no room for monarchy but
> welcome for ex royalty as people.
>
> *17 *The concept of royalty and then its hangers on ,
> immediately makes a class system with divisions and also anti democratic
> from the top down
>
> *18 *Athens had no permanent civil service.
>
> *19 *Does a geographically dispersed and large 61million
> population preclude democracy?
>
> *20 *What overseas dependencies should be shed as
> impairing other states’ democratic rights?
>
> *21 *How do we democratise (away) war?
>
> *22 * We note that choosing judges by lottery from
> amongst elected candidates was the system
>
> *23 *We note the insight that most citizens don’t want to
> give up their time to government (Which implies that finding the number of
> people to attend is as much the problem as reducing the number wanting to
> attend and govern.)
>
> *24 **The Assembly met in the open air. Without hardship
> there is an opportunity to free the national assembly from association with
> just one location and from association with **London** and to re- use
> ancient moot sites. *
>
> *25 **Meeting of the assembly sanctifies the sites and
> re-establishes reverence for the land. *
>
> * Note No. 10, **Downing Street**, (gasp) **Palace** of *
> *Westminster**, Big Ben, Buckingham palace, the Cenotaph,*
>
> * (holy ,holy , holy) Parliament Square…**Whitehall**,
> changing the Guards….*
>
> *26 **Monarchy devalues self government and devalues
> ‘people’ and rivals the sovereign people .*
>
> *27 **We note the persevering Roman precedent S.P.Q.R. Senatus
> and Populus Quirinale ( District of ) **Romulus**.*
>
> *28 **Democracy poses a challenge to education it can
> motivate learners as they strive to be worthy of government *
>
> *29 **Which practices in the **UK** parliament follow the
> precedent of Athenian democracy ?*
>
> *30 **How far do slavery, the exclusion of women and endemic
> savage warmongering negate Athenian Democracy?*
>
> *31 **Which present practices of the **UK** parliament improve
> Athenian D?*
>
> *32 **Which present **UK** D practices are more
> suitable /necessary to the needs of a post industrial **UK** society? *
>
> *33 **What are the dangers of not progressing D to meet
> present /future human rights, in **UK** and world-wide. *
>
> *34 **Can Parliament be persuaded by good sense and
> utility or by the people’s actions to constitution reform?*
>
> *35 **How urgently can we use **UK** people sovereignty
> to spread people sovereignty world-wide to bring peace? *
>
> *Reading List A. *Zimmern The Greek Commonwealth
>
> * *Thucydides The Peloponnesian War
>
> * The Old Oligarch, The
> Constitution of Athenians*
>
> * K Mackenzie The English
> Parliament *(see Chapter End References )
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 16:25:01 +0000
> > From: alisonbanville at yahoo.co.uk
> > Subject: [Dem-Village] we the people
> > To: peopleincommon at lists.riseup.net; democracyvillage at googlegroups.com;
> project2012 at googlegroups.com
> >
> > in case anyone missed this yesterday:
> >
> >
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/libertycentral/2010/dec/14/gus-o-donnell-cabinet-manual-constitution
> >
> >
> > The cabinet secretary, Gus O'Donnell, has just issued a 150-page
> draftcabinet
> > manual that sets out how we are governed, and is being widely hailed as
> the
> > foundation for a codified constitution. Although an unelected mandarin,
> he took
> > it upon himself to give an interview in advance to the Telegraph and told
> them:
> > "I think those who are in favour of a written constitution will start
> with it …
> > It has never existed before; we've been waiting decades and decades for
> this."
> > Really? Let's put that little "we" on hold for a moment.
> > The document is not in any way a draft of a democratic constitution. It
> is a
> > manual for British dictatorship. It is quite open about this. It states:
> "It is
> > written from the perspective of the executive branch of government". It
> adds:
> > "It is not intended to have any legal effect or set issues in stone. It
> is
> > intended to guide, not to direct." In plain language, we can change it
> whenever
> > we think it is best and it sets out how the executive can get away with
> whatever
> > it can get away with.
> > The manual opens with what in any constitutional democracy would be a lie
> and in
> > our second-rate version is arguably false as well as an outrage. This is
> how it
> > sees Britain:
> > "The UK is a parliamentary democracy which has a constitutional sovereign
> as
> > Head of State; a sovereign parliament, which is supreme to all other
> government
> > institutions, consisting of the Sovereign, the House of Commons and the
> House of
> > Lords, an Executive drawn from and accountable to Parliament, and an
> independent
> > judiciary."
> > There is no mention of the rule of law. The judges are independent but
> > parliament is supreme, meaning above the law, meaning it has the powers
> of,
> > sorry to have to repeat the word, dictatorship. Once they could have got
> away
> > with this formulation easily. Now it is harder, as someone slipped up and
>
> > drafted the Constitutional Reform Act of 2005which was passed by a sleepy
>
> > parliament. Part 1 asserts that nothing in it overturns "The existing
> > constitutional principle of the rule of law".
> > A constitutional principle – no less. But thanks to O'Donnell's
> old-fashioned
> > legerdemain, like all good principles it has disappeared.
> > As for the actual section on ministers and the law, it states, "Ministers
> must
> > act lawfully in taking decisions". Doesn't that make you feel proud? Have
> you
> > ever seen a job description that felt it necessary to stipulate that you
> had to
> > "act lawfully"? What then follows is a high-class villain's charter, a
> guide for
> > the executive as to how, as they say, to stay on the right side of the
> law
> > (where they have failed to change it).
> > I could go on: it sets out in clauses 122 and 123 how "The Prime Minister
> is
> > responsible for the overall organisation of the Government … and
> departments do
> > not have their own legal personality". This means that departments of
> state can
> > be split, merged, reorganised, renamed, without any say by parliament
> (which is
> > how, under Lord Mandelson, universities were snicked out of education and
> into
> > business).
> > The section on ministers and parliament similarly is a guide for how to
> manage
> > parliament. Clause 205 is a classic: "Ministers should consider
> publishing bills
> > in draft for pre-legislative scrutiny, where it is appropriate to do so",
> like
> > whenever.
> > There is nothing on ministers and the public. There is no sense
> whatsoever that
> > "the executive branch" which includes the elected government has any duty
> or
> > obligations towards the people.
> > So what's going on? Why has this outrage been published to the lone
> handclaps
> > from the few remnants and detritus of the great and good still standing,
> like
> > Peter Hennessy and Robert Hazell?
> > When O'Donnell's most outstanding predecessor Robin Butler was head of
> the civil
> > service he was asked what the British constitution was and he answered,
> "It is
> > something we make up as we go along". There is that mandarin 'we". It
> isn't you,
> > and I or even readers of the Daily Mail, for whom I have the greatest
> respect,
> > who "make it up". No, it is them. It belongs to them and they made it up.
> But to
> > get away with it meant not shining light on the fact.
> > Then along came John Smith, who as leader of the Labour party committed
> it to a
> > "new constitutional settlement". Smith died, Blair succeeded him and
> under him
> > dramatic changes, parliaments, the Human Rights Act, freedom of
> information,
> > were rammed through and the old constitution was broken. Along comes
> Gordon
> > Brown, who had advised Smith, and declares we need to renew trust.
> Privately, he
> > wanted to be "father of Britain" with a written constitution as his
> crowning
> > achievement. But the original idea for this, that went back to Charter
> 88, was
> > to create a democratic settlement, to turn subjects into citizens, to
> vest
> > sovereignty in "we the people" with an open process akin to South
> Africa's (and
> > polls always show around 70% support for a democratic constitution –
> although
> > wisely few look to the powers that be to permit one).
> > But any attempt to trust the people, as opposed to bankers, and launch an
> open
> > process withered away. In his last, gasping days of office, Brown
> instructed Gus
> > O'Donnell to write down what we had, hoping the lure of a written (non)
> > constitution would win the vote of an eccentric or two. Here is the
> result, the
> > last steaming dump of Labour's lost opportunity.
> > Amusingly, Democratic Audit had already set out the status quo in writing
> when
> > it published "The Unspoken Constitution". The idea was to expose how
> Britain is
> > actually run thereby shaming people into change. It's open words were
> "We, the
> > elite". It was meant as a joke. Ha bloody ha. We, that is to say we
> would-be
> > citizens of this country, have not, repeat not, been "waiting decades"
> for this.
> >
> >
> >
> >
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