[Campaignforrealdemocracy] Occupy LSX: What can be undone & how we may do it

Tue Oct 11 05:31:17 UTC 2011

Cheers Chris and Justin

What you both say makes sense to me, especially that the Assemblies have to
work it - the new economic system - out together. I was really pleased and
surprised to see reference in the Daily Mail to the Occupy London quote
about "no-one can speak for the assemblies" although of course they will
change their tune (probably back and forth on many occasions) later.

One thing I do think is worth doing however is a piece on the potential for
the Assemblies movement. Something that doesn't attempt in any way to speak
for the assemblies, but rather is an intervention that sketches out,
essentially from a uk constitutional perspective what a properly organised
world based on their (the assemblies) sovereignty rather than the
centralised state and its financialist backers, could actually look like. In
broad brush to set out some ideas on what it would mean to say that
decentralised assemblies are sovereign in, say local and national
decision-making, public employment issues, housing rights, land use,
schooling and other matters. And perhaps on the need for a written
constitution. To be clear, not to speak for the assemblies - and to be very
explicit about that in the intervention - but to put forward a vision of
where they might go so that the widest possible public interest can be
garnered, a good debate opened up and the opportunity offered by the
assembly model entering the public consciousness taken to maximum effect.

Cheers !

Mark

On 10 October 2011 22:51, Chris Kennett <chriskennett01 at hotmail.com> wrote:

>  Hi Mark Justin
>
> I also believe we shouldnt propose a new economic system.But we should make
> it clear that the existing system is totally broken and needs a total
> overhaul.A new economic solution should be chosen by the  participants of
> the new system.Probably based around a state backed and printed
> currency,with nothing to do with a private banking system.
>
> I also believe we should try and include as many people as possible even
> right wingers.If we only  include radical left wing ideas,it will be hard to
> bring enough people together.
>
> Ron Paul has come out and said he doesnt believe in the economic system it
> is corrupt needs replacing and is unfair on the poor and unconstitutional.He
> also said that the Fed comits fraud and theft and is worse than just being a
> private bank.He also says main stream media like Fox news  is just a
> propaganda tool.All in below video.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3SOlXxUBLk&feature=player_embedded
>
>
> chris
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 10:06:02 +0100
> From: marknbarrett at googlemail.com
> CC: buildinglocalgroups at lists.riseup.net;
> campaignforrealdemocracy at lists.aktivix.org
>
> Subject: Re: [Campaignforrealdemocracy] Occupy LSX: What can be undone &
> how we may do it
>
> Hi Justin
>
> Before I forward this can you please check
>
> "Their leaders tend to be right-wing Labour Party supporters, their members
> are not radical left-wingers, if we do not speak to them in a way they can
> understand and accept, then LSX has won. "
>
> Did you mean 'then LSX has lost' ?
>
> Also
>
> *"I don't believe we should propose a new economic system* or some ready
> made solution...
> The third thing I propose is what our principles/demands could be: they
> should be concrete and recognise that real power lies with the masses not
> parliament nor the banks. Our demands should not repeat stagnant Leftist
> rhetoric and *it should demand nothing less than a fundamental break with
> the existing economic system* that has brought us to this point."
>
> Can you clarify what you mean by this ? ( it seems contradictory)
>
> Finally, just to let you know I will be working with others to put all this
> into a constitutional UK context (your last para about new structures etc
> and what that might look like so we can get a sense of where we might be
> going that can appeal to the wider public, left and right as with activists
> as you suggest.
>
> Let me know your clarifications and I will forward  your mail asap to the
> Occupy London people.
>
> PS everyone there is a positive Daily Mail article on the protests today ,
> which even mentions the primacy of the Assemblies :-)!
>
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2047277/Thousands-plan-protest-camp-Londons-financial-centre-inspired-Occupy-Wall-Street-campaign.html?ito=feeds-newsxml
>
>
> On 10 October 2011 09:23, Justin Baidoo-Hackman <justin.baidoo at yahoo.co.uk
> > wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> I am a voluntary community organiser and software developer, I run a blog
> called the Multicultural Politic. You could label my politics as Libertarian
> Socialism. I will be at another meeting this evening so I am writing my
> points to you all to raise points about how the UK Occupy movements could
> organise itself.
> I believe that the global Occupy movements from the Icelandic and Arab
> Revolts to the Spanish Indignados to now Occupy Wall Street, are a necessary
> and timely series of events.
> I think the common thread throughout all these uprisings from below is the
> willingness of the people to resist in a largely non-violent way in order to
> bring about fundamental changes to their societies. I will now propose three
> things about how this collective could progress.
> I will state briefly these proposals for dissemination at a meeting, below
> that will be an expounding of them.
> 1. Build open, non-hierarchial democratic structures ala Climate Camp. Too
> much secrecy will kill support.
> 2. Resist sectarianism. Seek to gain support from beyond the usual suspects
> including the mainstream right-wing public. Involvement of the 3+ million
> strong Labour movement is essential.
> 3. Have concrete, realistic but imaginative demands. These are points of
> unity and organisation. "End Capitalism" is laudable but not concrete and is
> ambiguous about the agency that will achieve it. Do not legitimise the
> existing dictatorial power structures. A few examples of concrete demands
> are: "Stop all austerity measures like Welfare Reform" and "Enable real
> workplace democracy in RBS and other state owned/controlled banks and
> industries".
> Ok so here are my proposals in more detail.
> So what I propose first of all is that we are open, non-hierarchial and
> democratic, build structures of responsibility and accountability.
> Secrecy is a tactic that we should use sparingly and not as a cultural
> norm. We should assume that we are already under surveillance, what Mark
> (Stone) Kennedy showed that the infiltrators no longer always break
> movements now it is movements that break infiltrators with their honesty and
> commitment. The experience of climate camp is crucial, we can have
> democratic and non-hierarchial structures that are effective. We must
> however agree as organisers to stick and seek these principles and methods.
> My second proposal is that we must move beyond ideological sectarian
> ghettos and be actively seek to engage with ordinary people who hold
> right-wing views.
> We need to view this UK movement in the context of millions not hundreds or
> thousands. If Occupy LSX will resonate with millions then we need to be
> broad and open but not unprincipled and not without any ideological binding
> principles.
> The best and most concrete successes so far have been in Tunisia and Egypt,
> where change has been precluded by a militant trade union movement that has
> taken political and as well as industrial motivated strikes.
> I am an active trade unionist, I will seek to get my union branch, region
> and the Young Members committees that I am part of, to participate in this
> movement. However there needs to be structures that will accommodate them.
> This video has gone viral (100,000+ views) on the interwebs about a Wall
> Street Protester: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQow0Fhua1A&feature=share.
> It is essentially an anti-big state, anti-bailout argument, it resonates
> because a lot of the analysis is accurate but his solution (Vote Ron Paul)
> is abhorrent.
> However this guy judging by YouTube comments has probably brought a lot of
> right-wing libertarian grassroots support for Occupy Wall Street. Does that
> matter?
> I believe it does and is a positive step. I think if we rely on the
> factional largely Trotskyist dominated radical left then the Occupations are
> screwed, the direct action faction typified by Solidarity Fed and UKUncut
> (which is to the right) is too small also. The unions represent the
> organised workforce and the dominating ideas of ordinary people. Their
> leaders tend to be right-wing Labour Party supporters, their members are not
> radical left-wingers, if we do not speak to them in a way they can
> understand and accept, then LSX has won. I don't believe we should propose a
> new economic system or some ready made solution.
> The third thing I propose is what our principles/demands could be: they
> should be concrete and recognise that real power lies with the masses not
> parliament nor the banks. Our demands should not repeat stagnant Leftist
> rhetoric and it should demand nothing less than a fundamental break with the
> existing economic system that has brought us to this point. We need to be
> clear that this current system is the enemy though we can select individuals
> that are leading proponents. In fact we should somewhat but not totally
> personalise it to help communicate the problem with this system.
> A key demand is for an end of austerity and attacks on living standards. No
> more homelessness, etc. I guess some would call these "Transistional
> demands", I don't care about the labels but some if not all our demands
> should be "feasible" which means within the power of existing structures but
> they should lead towards their abolishment and replacement of these existing
> dictatorial/hierarchial power structures with new non-hierarchial/democratic
> ones.
> In relation to the 15th October I will publish more of my thoughts on this
> website: http://www.tmponline.org
>
> --
> Justin Baidoo
> Editor of TMP: http://www.tmponline.org
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/justinthelibsoc
>
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>
>
>
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>
>
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