[Campaignforrealdemocracy] Straw Man Times !

[Brian Mankin]

Hello Mark,

Actually a straw-man argument is a deliberately weak and misleading 
representation of an opposing point of view.  The straw man argument is 
presented so that it may easily challenged and defeated in an attempt 
to slander and discredit the opposing position.

Wikipedia describes the straw man thus:
> A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy 
> based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position, twisting his 
> words or by means of [false] assumptions.[1] To "attack a straw man" 
> is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by 
> replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent 
> proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having 
> actually refuted the original position.[1][2] Generally, the straw 
> man is a highly exaggerated or over-simplified version of the 
> opponent's original statement, which has been distorted to the point 
> of absurdity. This exaggerated or distorted statement is thus easily 
> argued against, but is a misrepresentation of the opponent's actual 
> statement.

Wikipedia also gives two examples.

Example 1
>   Person A: We should liberalize the laws on beer.
>   Person B: No, any society with unrestricted access to intoxicants 
>      loses its work ethic and goes only for immediate gratification.

> The proposal was to relax laws on beer. Person B has exaggerated this 
> to a position harder to defend, i.e., "unrestricted access to 
> intoxicants".[1] It is a logical fallacy because Person A never made 
> that claim. This example is also a slippery slope fallacy.

Example 2
>   Person A: Our society should be taxed less.
>   Person B: It is unjust to promote a society that neglects the poor.

> In this case, Person B has transformed Person A's position from "less 
> taxation" to "neglecting the poor", which is easier for Person B to 
> defeat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man


- - - - -
I really don't think that Libby Purves article qualifies as a 
straw man.  I'm not even sure that she has presented any sort of 
argument at all.  She just seems to be generally snarky about the 
presence of the protestors, the collateral damage their presence may be 
causing to people and institutions that are not the target of the 
protests and the apparent lack of a unifying message.

Not having been to the protests, I can't comment on the first two 
points.  But as to the third, I do share her apparent puzzlement.  I've 
been reading these emails for some time now and I'm still not sure 
precisely what you want or how it can be provided.


Brian,

= = = = = = = = = =
On 24/10/11 11:53:27, Mark Barrett wrote:
> PS to be inclusive it is worth saying ( sorry should have with 1st
> post that
> "Straw Man argument" means crap argument, easy to knock down, looks
> strong
> but ain't) ;-)
> 
> Also to note the headline above Purves article, "Enough of this
> Glastonbury
> Grievance" which i forgot to paste shows they are grubbing around
> looking
> for slurs, all the prejudices coming out such as ant-capitalists on
> benefits, hippies etc etc.
> 
> We are winning so let's get our content clearer and win more!
> 
> Mark
> 
> On 24 October 2011 11:20, Mark Barrett <marknbarrett at googlemail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > Hi again
> >
> > Here below is another critical article from the Times, although 
> this
> time:
> > (a) they mention the statement and (b) there is a very good video 
> on
> the
> > web-page.
> >
> > The 2-3 minute video is solely of activists in the camp talking
> (including
> > Robin Smith of these lists) mainly about capitalism or the system
> with no
> > editorial comment at all. The activists come across very well
> indeed. If we
> > up our game politically we can win the journalists over IMO.
> >
> > Unfortunately the video is behind the paywall, so I can't share it.
> > Although it's a pound for one month subscription at the moment in
> case
> > anyone can bear the idea of giving murdoch money.
> >
> > I have also pasted below today's news feature on the camp.
> Incidentally the
> > comments in the paper are ( and have been since the occupation
> began) more
> > broadly favourable towards the occupation which is perhaps why the
> video is
> > featured and the editorial today actually touches upon the camp's
> actual
> > political content, and process ( for the 1st time).
> >
> > Ciao for now
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > *The St Paul’s protesters have no specific aims; no realistic
> demands.
> > Occupy London should clear up and clear off
> > Libby Purves
> > *
> >
> > The trouble with being raised by the better sort of nuns is that 
> you
> come
> > to expect not only high standards but almost crazily otherworldly
> ones from
> > anybody with a religious label round his or her neck. Examination 
> of
> > conscience, confession of faults, loving your enemy, turning the
> other
> > cheek, offering up undeserved discomforts and humiliations for the
> Holy
> > Souls in Purgatory. All that.
> >
> > Even when you discard your own religious label you remain hard-
> wired
> to
> > expect them in those who haven’t. So, just as in a briefly South
> African
> > childhood I was scandalised by one school full of racist Ursuline
> nuns,
> > going on about “kaffirs” while wearing pectoral crosses, so I now
> spend a
> > lot of time cringing at murderous militant Islamists, mean-spirited
> hellfire
> > Evangelicals, Catholic paedophile cover-ups and the rest.
> >
> > When I was younger and even more naive, I remember my shock at
> finding out
> > the hard way what hawkish landlords the Church Commissioners were,
> that
> > religious publishers are not necessarily pleasant to deal with, and
> that the
> > BBC religion department can be as churlish as any other bit of the
> Corp. As
> > to those in Northern Ireland who glued “Catholic” and “Protestant”
> labels
> > over their un-Christian tribalism, the shame of it burns still.
> >
> > Go on, jeer, I deserve it for crimes against cynicism. Just blame
> those
> > kind, clever, humble self-sacrificing Sacred Heart nuns of my
> schooldays.
> > But it explains why I was rather pleased when the Rev Dr Giles
> Fraser, Canon
> > Chancellor of St Paul’s, was initially so welcoming to the “Occupy
> London”
> > campers in Paternoster Square. He seemed to me to display the
> correct amount
> > of saintly recklessness and neo-Franciscan welcome.
> >
> > Now Cathedral spokesmen are saying his “initial reaction” was not
> made in
> > consultation with the Dean and Chapter, and Dr Giddings of the
> General
> > Synod’s House of Laity speaks sorrowfully of “hindsight”. But a 
> good
> few
> > Anglican voices are backing the original welcome, even though it is
> now
> > causing huge financial losses as the Cathedral closes, and may
> torpedo its
> > Advent and Christmas programme. All very well the campers scoffing
> “render
> > unto Caesar”, but in straitened times if the shop and café takings
> and
> > donations stop flowing, Caesar isn’t going to keep the heating on.
> >
> > So my main irritation is with the Occupy protesters themselves, and
> their
> > bombastic announcement that they may well stay beyond Christmas.
> That’s not
> > Christian, kind or reasonable. Unless, of course, the camp really
> has the
> > power to be a more effective agent for change than all the serious
> political
> > campaigners, community groups, and churches.
> >
> > So does it have that power? I have watched the encampment grow;
> listened to
> > all sides; noted the *Telegraph* poll saying more than 80 per cent
> think
> > the demonstrators should leave, and the *Guardian* one where 82 per
> cent
> > back them. I have trawled online for the views of occupiers in Wall
> Street,
> > Germany, Italy and Greece.
> >
> > Some are interesting and focused, particularly on the overweening
> power of
> > corporations and the kowtowing of governments to big money. Most 
> are
> less
> > impressive. I especially like the German lad who arrived without a
> tent or
> > sleeping bag because “there are always spares”, and is relaxed 
> about
> time
> > because though he lost his job a while ago, he’s on full pay until
> the end
> > of November. Who, and what system, does he think is paying him to
> sit in
> > someone else’s tent being righteous?
> >
> > I have read the UK group’s “manifesto”. It has nine points. It 
> wants
> > “alternatives” to the current system, refuses to “pay for the
> banking
> > crisis”, does not accept any spending cuts, and wants an end to
> “global
> > injustice”, which it appears to say three times in slightly
> different ways.
> > It supports all other looming strikes and protests, and (in a brief
> happy
> > diversion into practicality) wants regulators to be “genuinely
> independent
> > of the industries they regulate”. Hear, hear.
> >
> > It concludes with point nine, “This is what democracy looks like.”
> >
> > But its “General Assembly” is not really what democracy looks like:
> or only
> > in tiny simple communities. In crowded, complicated nations
> democracy is
> > about graft and grunt, checks and balances, committee-work and the
> rule of
> > law, justice laboriously meted out, respect for individuals going
> about
> > their lawful business with no time to sit around in tents.
> >
> > The slogan “Capitalism is Crisis” has a nice ring to it, but it is
> neither
> > true nor clear. Capitalism is one of many imperfect systems. It has
> its
> > faults, which elections and clear manifestos exist to check.
> Socialism also
> > has its faults, and so does the kind of anarchism that sets up 
> camps
> on
> > public property and demands more special treatment than its normal
> users.
> >
> > Capitalism, in the form of greedy and reckless banking, has
> certainly
> > contributed to the present need for public retrenchment and
> unwelcome cuts.
> > But so have each of us, in our way: in amassing household debt and
> making
> > massive consumer and lifestyle demands unearned by rising
> productivity. So
> > did the last Government with its reckless spending, waste, selling
> off gold
> > reserves, deregulation, careless immigration policy and unwise 
> wars.
> So did
> > the Conservative Government before them, with its disregard for the
> national
> > industrial base, cavalier attitude to mass unemployment and worship
> of the
> > City.
> >
> > Plenty of things need fixing, but protests have lost their focus.
> The
> > Jarrow marchers, Aldermaston CND, Vietnam protesters and Greenham
> women all
> > had clear demands, and it was obvious to everyone what would have
> appeased
> > them. Even the student protesters against fees were reasonably
> well-focused:
> > it was a limited policy they were hoping to reverse. The trouble
> with UK
> > Uncut and the idealistic, self-righteous campers of Occupy London 
> is
> that it
> > is impossible to think of any clear, feasible action by an elected
> > government that would satisfy and shift them.
> >
> > For it is, basically, a tented tantrum. A nylon-roofed, media-
> savvy,
> > Twitterati, festival-inspired, Glasto-generation sulk. I’m very 
> glad
> that St
> > Paul’s was gracious towards it at first. But soon the campers 
> should
> return
> > the favour by folding their tents and silently stealing away. And 
> if
> they
> > really want public acclaim and sympathy, they won’t leave one 
> single
> bit of
> > litter.
> >
> >
> > http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/libbypurves/
> article3203723.ece
> >
> > *Protesters threaten to keep St Paul’s closed for Christmas*
> >
> >    - [image: St Pauls cathedral on Sunday morning as its doors
> remain
> >    closed to worshippers and tourists due to the Anti-Capitalism
> protest site
> >    outside their front doors.]
> >    1 of 6
> >    Protesters outside St Paul’s. The cathedral is losing £16,000 a
> day Times
> >    photographer, Matt Lloyd
> >    - [image: Activists start an overflow camp in Finsbury Square]
> >    2 of 6
> >    Activists have started an overflow camp in Finsbury Square Times
> >    photographer, Matt Lloyd
> >    - [image: Protesters hold a meeting on the steps of St Pauls’
> >    Cathedral]
> >    3 of 6
> >    Manadatory Credit: Photo by Ray Tang / Rex Features (1476798a)
> >    Protesters hold a meeting on the steps of St Pauls’ Cathedral
> Occupy The
> >    London Stock Exchange demonstration, London, Britain – 23 Oct
> 2011 St Paul’s
> >    Cathedral forced to close for the first time since the Second
> World War due
> >    to the presence of the Occupy The London Stock Exchange Camp Ray
> >    Tang/Rex Features
> >    -  4 of 6
> >    The City of London has appealed to them to move on peacefully
> Andy
> >    Rain/EPA
> >    - [image: Tents belonging to protestors taking part in the
> ‘Occupy
> >    London Stock Exchange’ demonstration remain in place in front of
> St Paul’s
> >    Cathedral]
> >    5 of 6
> >    Their tents fill up the plaza in front of St Paul's Oli
> Scarff/Getty
> >    Images
> >    - [image: Finsbury Square]
> >    6 of 6
> >    Anti-capitalist protesters have set up a second camp at Finsbury
> Square Carl
> >    Court/AFP/Getty Images
> >
> >  <http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article3203440.ece#>
> > <http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article3203440.ece#>
> >   * Ruth Gledhill<http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/profile/
> Ruth-Gledhill>
> > * Religion Correspondent
> >  Last updated October 24 2011 12:10AM
> >
> > St Paul’s Cathedral could be closed for three months as the
> anti-capitalist
> > Occupy London protest camp continued to grow in size, expanding 
> into
> nearby
> > Finsbury Square.
> >
> > The protest puts at risk Remembrance Sunday and the Lord Mayor’s
> Show next
> > month and services in the run-up to Christmas.
> >
> > The protesters showed no signs of abandoning their “mission”,
> remaining
> > unmoved by the pleas of Dr Marjory Foyle, 89, who spent more than 
> 30
> years
> > as a missionary doctor in Nepal. She wept as she told the 
> protesters
> that
> > they were wrong. Speaking in front of the camp of 200 people, she
> described
> > going to see St Paul’s during the Blitz, the last time the building
> was shut
> > down, and then for only four days. “Every building bar St Paul’s 
> was
> erased
> > and I said to myself the hand of God is on St Paul’s.”
> >
> > Matthew Richardson, councillor for the ward neighbouring St Paul’s,
> said
> > that lawyers had advised the City of London Corporation that it
> could take
> > at least three months to move the protesters on. He understood that
> the
> > cathedral would remain closed as long as there were health and
> safety
> > issues.
> >
> > The City of London authorities warned that the protesters, now into
> the
> > second week of their encampment, risk damaging the “integrity” of
> their
> > movement if they stayed longer.
> >
> > The legal situation is similar to that at Parliament Square. If the
> > protesters do not decide to move voluntarily, City Corporation
> lawyers may
> > face months of legal battles to get them out. Stuart Fraser,
> chairman of the
> > City of London Corporation policy and resources committee, said:
> “The City
> > will accommodate lawful protest but this should not accommodate a
> long-term
> > campsite that blocks the highway.”
> >
> > However, Islington Council, owners of Finsbury Square where the
> second camp
> > is located, seemed more sympathetic. Councillor Catherine West,
> leader of
> > the council, said: “We support the right to peaceful protest,
> balanced with
> > the needs of our community.”
> >
> > There were no public services at St Paul’s yesterday, nor will 
> there
> be any
> > for the foreseeable future but the Dean and Chapter are continuing
> to say
> > morning and evening prayer in the cathedral. People who turned up
> for
> > services yesterday were directed to nearby St Vedast Foster Lane.
> Some
> > worshippers held an impromptu evensong on the cathedral’s steps.
> >
> > St Paul’s is losing about £16,000 a day because of the decision to
> close
> > its doors, 80 per cent of its running costs.
> >
> > Organisers of the occupation announced the first edition of a
> newspaper to
> > be printed on Wednesday, *The Occupied Times of London*. The Museum
> of
> > London has asked for the first of the 1,000 copies to be printed
> >
> > http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article3203440.ece
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Apathy is Dead !
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/solarider/5254770064/#/photos/
> solarider/5254770064/lightbox/
> 

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