[Campaignforrealdemocracy] Straw Man Times !

[Robin Smith]

Oh dear. State regulation guarantees corruption. Checkout the FSA

On 24 October 2011 20:32,  <marknbarrett at googlemail.com> wrote:
> Hi Brian thanks for the clarification about what is a Straw Man - I didn't realise :-)     ok - here's what I think the camp should say it's for, and act upon:  (1)  democratic control of the state and its power to regulate business locally, nationally and globally    (2) a new,  direct not representative model of democracy (3) solidarity with the Arab Spring  (4) real democracy now!   Is that clear enough? Looking forward to any comments -  Mark
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Mankin <Brian at Mankin.me.uk>
> Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 16:46:56
> To: Mark Barrett<marknbarrett at googlemail.com>
> Cc: <oh15 at googlegroups.com>; strikersassembly<strikersassembly at googlegroups.com>; <campaignforrealdemocracy at lists.aktivix.org>; <trafalgar-square-assembly at googlegroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Campaignforrealdemocracy] Straw Man Times !
>
> Hello Mark,
>
> Actually a straw-man argument is a deliberately weak and misleading
> representation of an opposing point of view.  The straw man argument is
> presented so that it may easily challenged and defeated in an attempt
> to slander and discredit the opposing position.
>
> Wikipedia describes the straw man thus:
>> A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy
>> based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position, twisting his
>> words or by means of [false] assumptions.[1] To "attack a straw man"
>> is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by
>> replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent
>> proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having
>> actually refuted the original position.[1][2] Generally, the straw
>> man is a highly exaggerated or over-simplified version of the
>> opponent's original statement, which has been distorted to the point
>> of absurdity. This exaggerated or distorted statement is thus easily
>> argued against, but is a misrepresentation of the opponent's actual
>> statement.
>
> Wikipedia also gives two examples.
>
> Example 1
>>   Person A: We should liberalize the laws on beer.
>>   Person B: No, any society with unrestricted access to intoxicants
>>      loses its work ethic and goes only for immediate gratification.
>
>> The proposal was to relax laws on beer. Person B has exaggerated this
>> to a position harder to defend, i.e., "unrestricted access to
>> intoxicants".[1] It is a logical fallacy because Person A never made
>> that claim. This example is also a slippery slope fallacy.
>
> Example 2
>>   Person A: Our society should be taxed less.
>>   Person B: It is unjust to promote a society that neglects the poor.
>
>> In this case, Person B has transformed Person A's position from "less
>> taxation" to "neglecting the poor", which is easier for Person B to
>> defeat.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
>
>
> - - - - -
> I really don't think that Libby Purves article qualifies as a
> straw man.  I'm not even sure that she has presented any sort of
> argument at all.  She just seems to be generally snarky about the
> presence of the protestors, the collateral damage their presence may be
> causing to people and institutions that are not the target of the
> protests and the apparent lack of a unifying message.
>
> Not having been to the protests, I can't comment on the first two
> points.  But as to the third, I do share her apparent puzzlement.  I've
> been reading these emails for some time now and I'm still not sure
> precisely what you want or how it can be provided.
>
>
> Brian,
>
> = = = = = = = = = =
> On 24/10/11 11:53:27, Mark Barrett wrote:
>> PS to be inclusive it is worth saying ( sorry should have with 1st
>> post that
>> "Straw Man argument" means crap argument, easy to knock down, looks
>> strong
>> but ain't) ;-)
>>
>> Also to note the headline above Purves article, "Enough of this
>> Glastonbury
>> Grievance" which i forgot to paste shows they are grubbing around
>> looking
>> for slurs, all the prejudices coming out such as ant-capitalists on
>> benefits, hippies etc etc.
>>
>> We are winning so let's get our content clearer and win more!
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> On 24 October 2011 11:20, Mark Barrett <marknbarrett at googlemail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi again
>> >
>> > Here below is another critical article from the Times, although
>> this
>> time:
>> > (a) they mention the statement and (b) there is a very good video
>> on
>> the
>> > web-page.
>> >
>> > The 2-3 minute video is solely of activists in the camp talking
>> (including
>> > Robin Smith of these lists) mainly about capitalism or the system
>> with no
>> > editorial comment at all. The activists come across very well
>> indeed. If we
>> > up our game politically we can win the journalists over IMO.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately the video is behind the paywall, so I can't share it.
>> > Although it's a pound for one month subscription at the moment in
>> case
>> > anyone can bear the idea of giving murdoch money.
>> >
>> > I have also pasted below today's news feature on the camp.
>> Incidentally the
>> > comments in the paper are ( and have been since the occupation
>> began) more
>> > broadly favourable towards the occupation which is perhaps why the
>> video is
>> > featured and the editorial today actually touches upon the camp's
>> actual
>> > political content, and process ( for the 1st time).
>> >
>> > Ciao for now
>> >
>> > Mark
>> >
>> > *The St Paul’s protesters have no specific aims; no realistic
>> demands.
>> > Occupy London should clear up and clear off
>> > Libby Purves
>> > *
>> >
>> > The trouble with being raised by the better sort of nuns is that
>> you
>> come
>> > to expect not only high standards but almost crazily otherworldly
>> ones from
>> > anybody with a religious label round his or her neck. Examination
>> of
>> > conscience, confession of faults, loving your enemy, turning the
>> other
>> > cheek, offering up undeserved discomforts and humiliations for the
>> Holy
>> > Souls in Purgatory. All that.
>> >
>> > Even when you discard your own religious label you remain hard-
>> wired
>> to
>> > expect them in those who haven’t. So, just as in a briefly South
>> African
>> > childhood I was scandalised by one school full of racist Ursuline
>> nuns,
>> > going on about “kaffirs” while wearing pectoral crosses, so I now
>> spend a
>> > lot of time cringing at murderous militant Islamists, mean-spirited
>> hellfire
>> > Evangelicals, Catholic paedophile cover-ups and the rest.
>> >
>> > When I was younger and even more naive, I remember my shock at
>> finding out
>> > the hard way what hawkish landlords the Church Commissioners were,
>> that
>> > religious publishers are not necessarily pleasant to deal with, and
>> that the
>> > BBC religion department can be as churlish as any other bit of the
>> Corp. As
>> > to those in Northern Ireland who glued “Catholic” and “Protestant”
>> labels
>> > over their un-Christian tribalism, the shame of it burns still.
>> >
>> > Go on, jeer, I deserve it for crimes against cynicism. Just blame
>> those
>> > kind, clever, humble self-sacrificing Sacred Heart nuns of my
>> schooldays.
>> > But it explains why I was rather pleased when the Rev Dr Giles
>> Fraser, Canon
>> > Chancellor of St Paul’s, was initially so welcoming to the “Occupy
>> London”
>> > campers in Paternoster Square. He seemed to me to display the
>> correct amount
>> > of saintly recklessness and neo-Franciscan welcome.
>> >
>> > Now Cathedral spokesmen are saying his “initial reaction” was not
>> made in
>> > consultation with the Dean and Chapter, and Dr Giddings of the
>> General
>> > Synod’s House of Laity speaks sorrowfully of “hindsight”. But a
>> good
>> few
>> > Anglican voices are backing the original welcome, even though it is
>> now
>> > causing huge financial losses as the Cathedral closes, and may
>> torpedo its
>> > Advent and Christmas programme. All very well the campers scoffing
>> “render
>> > unto Caesar”, but in straitened times if the shop and café takings
>> and
>> > donations stop flowing, Caesar isn’t going to keep the heating on.
>> >
>> > So my main irritation is with the Occupy protesters themselves, and
>> their
>> > bombastic announcement that they may well stay beyond Christmas.
>> That’s not
>> > Christian, kind or reasonable. Unless, of course, the camp really
>> has the
>> > power to be a more effective agent for change than all the serious
>> political
>> > campaigners, community groups, and churches.
>> >
>> > So does it have that power? I have watched the encampment grow;
>> listened to
>> > all sides; noted the *Telegraph* poll saying more than 80 per cent
>> think
>> > the demonstrators should leave, and the *Guardian* one where 82 per
>> cent
>> > back them. I have trawled online for the views of occupiers in Wall
>> Street,
>> > Germany, Italy and Greece.
>> >
>> > Some are interesting and focused, particularly on the overweening
>> power of
>> > corporations and the kowtowing of governments to big money. Most
>> are
>> less
>> > impressive. I especially like the German lad who arrived without a
>> tent or
>> > sleeping bag because “there are always spares”, and is relaxed
>> about
>> time
>> > because though he lost his job a while ago, he’s on full pay until
>> the end
>> > of November. Who, and what system, does he think is paying him to
>> sit in
>> > someone else’s tent being righteous?
>> >
>> > I have read the UK group’s “manifesto”. It has nine points. It
>> wants
>> > “alternatives” to the current system, refuses to “pay for the
>> banking
>> > crisis”, does not accept any spending cuts, and wants an end to
>> “global
>> > injustice”, which it appears to say three times in slightly
>> different ways.
>> > It supports all other looming strikes and protests, and (in a brief
>> happy
>> > diversion into practicality) wants regulators to be “genuinely
>> independent
>> > of the industries they regulate”. Hear, hear.
>> >
>> > It concludes with point nine, “This is what democracy looks like.”
>> >
>> > But its “General Assembly” is not really what democracy looks like:
>> or only
>> > in tiny simple communities. In crowded, complicated nations
>> democracy is
>> > about graft and grunt, checks and balances, committee-work and the
>> rule of
>> > law, justice laboriously meted out, respect for individuals going
>> about
>> > their lawful business with no time to sit around in tents.
>> >
>> > The slogan “Capitalism is Crisis” has a nice ring to it, but it is
>> neither
>> > true nor clear. Capitalism is one of many imperfect systems. It has
>> its
>> > faults, which elections and clear manifestos exist to check.
>> Socialism also
>> > has its faults, and so does the kind of anarchism that sets up
>> camps
>> on
>> > public property and demands more special treatment than its normal
>> users.
>> >
>> > Capitalism, in the form of greedy and reckless banking, has
>> certainly
>> > contributed to the present need for public retrenchment and
>> unwelcome cuts.
>> > But so have each of us, in our way: in amassing household debt and
>> making
>> > massive consumer and lifestyle demands unearned by rising
>> productivity. So
>> > did the last Government with its reckless spending, waste, selling
>> off gold
>> > reserves, deregulation, careless immigration policy and unwise
>> wars.
>> So did
>> > the Conservative Government before them, with its disregard for the
>> national
>> > industrial base, cavalier attitude to mass unemployment and worship
>> of the
>> > City.
>> >
>> > Plenty of things need fixing, but protests have lost their focus.
>> The
>> > Jarrow marchers, Aldermaston CND, Vietnam protesters and Greenham
>> women all
>> > had clear demands, and it was obvious to everyone what would have
>> appeased
>> > them. Even the student protesters against fees were reasonably
>> well-focused:
>> > it was a limited policy they were hoping to reverse. The trouble
>> with UK
>> > Uncut and the idealistic, self-righteous campers of Occupy London
>> is
>> that it
>> > is impossible to think of any clear, feasible action by an elected
>> > government that would satisfy and shift them.
>> >
>> > For it is, basically, a tented tantrum. A nylon-roofed, media-
>> savvy,
>> > Twitterati, festival-inspired, Glasto-generation sulk. I’m very
>> glad
>> that St
>> > Paul’s was gracious towards it at first. But soon the campers
>> should
>> return
>> > the favour by folding their tents and silently stealing away. And
>> if
>> they
>> > really want public acclaim and sympathy, they won’t leave one
>> single
>> bit of
>> > litter.
>> >
>> >
>> > http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/libbypurves/
>> article3203723.ece
>> >
>> > *Protesters threaten to keep St Paul’s closed for Christmas*
>> >
>> >    - [image: St Pauls cathedral on Sunday morning as its doors
>> remain
>> >    closed to worshippers and tourists due to the Anti-Capitalism
>> protest site
>> >    outside their front doors.]
>> >    1 of 6
>> >    Protesters outside St Paul’s. The cathedral is losing £16,000 a
>> day Times
>> >    photographer, Matt Lloyd
>> >    - [image: Activists start an overflow camp in Finsbury Square]
>> >    2 of 6
>> >    Activists have started an overflow camp in Finsbury Square Times
>> >    photographer, Matt Lloyd
>> >    - [image: Protesters hold a meeting on the steps of St Pauls’
>> >    Cathedral]
>> >    3 of 6
>> >    Manadatory Credit: Photo by Ray Tang / Rex Features (1476798a)
>> >    Protesters hold a meeting on the steps of St Pauls’ Cathedral
>> Occupy The
>> >    London Stock Exchange demonstration, London, Britain – 23 Oct
>> 2011 St Paul’s
>> >    Cathedral forced to close for the first time since the Second
>> World War due
>> >    to the presence of the Occupy The London Stock Exchange Camp Ray
>> >    Tang/Rex Features
>> >    -  4 of 6
>> >    The City of London has appealed to them to move on peacefully
>> Andy
>> >    Rain/EPA
>> >    - [image: Tents belonging to protestors taking part in the
>> ‘Occupy
>> >    London Stock Exchange’ demonstration remain in place in front of
>> St Paul’s
>> >    Cathedral]
>> >    5 of 6
>> >    Their tents fill up the plaza in front of St Paul's Oli
>> Scarff/Getty
>> >    Images
>> >    - [image: Finsbury Square]
>> >    6 of 6
>> >    Anti-capitalist protesters have set up a second camp at Finsbury
>> Square Carl
>> >    Court/AFP/Getty Images
>> >
>> >  <http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article3203440.ece#>
>> > <http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article3203440.ece#>
>> >   * Ruth Gledhill<http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/profile/
>> Ruth-Gledhill>
>> > * Religion Correspondent
>> >  Last updated October 24 2011 12:10AM
>> >
>> > St Paul’s Cathedral could be closed for three months as the
>> anti-capitalist
>> > Occupy London protest camp continued to grow in size, expanding
>> into
>> nearby
>> > Finsbury Square.
>> >
>> > The protest puts at risk Remembrance Sunday and the Lord Mayor’s
>> Show next
>> > month and services in the run-up to Christmas.
>> >
>> > The protesters showed no signs of abandoning their “mission”,
>> remaining
>> > unmoved by the pleas of Dr Marjory Foyle, 89, who spent more than
>> 30
>> years
>> > as a missionary doctor in Nepal. She wept as she told the
>> protesters
>> that
>> > they were wrong. Speaking in front of the camp of 200 people, she
>> described
>> > going to see St Paul’s during the Blitz, the last time the building
>> was shut
>> > down, and then for only four days. “Every building bar St Paul’s
>> was
>> erased
>> > and I said to myself the hand of God is on St Paul’s.”
>> >
>> > Matthew Richardson, councillor for the ward neighbouring St Paul’s,
>> said
>> > that lawyers had advised the City of London Corporation that it
>> could take
>> > at least three months to move the protesters on. He understood that
>> the
>> > cathedral would remain closed as long as there were health and
>> safety
>> > issues.
>> >
>> > The City of London authorities warned that the protesters, now into
>> the
>> > second week of their encampment, risk damaging the “integrity” of
>> their
>> > movement if they stayed longer.
>> >
>> > The legal situation is similar to that at Parliament Square. If the
>> > protesters do not decide to move voluntarily, City Corporation
>> lawyers may
>> > face months of legal battles to get them out. Stuart Fraser,
>> chairman of the
>> > City of London Corporation policy and resources committee, said:
>> “The City
>> > will accommodate lawful protest but this should not accommodate a
>> long-term
>> > campsite that blocks the highway.”
>> >
>> > However, Islington Council, owners of Finsbury Square where the
>> second camp
>> > is located, seemed more sympathetic. Councillor Catherine West,
>> leader of
>> > the council, said: “We support the right to peaceful protest,
>> balanced with
>> > the needs of our community.”
>> >
>> > There were no public services at St Paul’s yesterday, nor will
>> there
>> be any
>> > for the foreseeable future but the Dean and Chapter are continuing
>> to say
>> > morning and evening prayer in the cathedral. People who turned up
>> for
>> > services yesterday were directed to nearby St Vedast Foster Lane.
>> Some
>> > worshippers held an impromptu evensong on the cathedral’s steps.
>> >
>> > St Paul’s is losing about £16,000 a day because of the decision to
>> close
>> > its doors, 80 per cent of its running costs.
>> >
>> > Organisers of the occupation announced the first edition of a
>> newspaper to
>> > be printed on Wednesday, *The Occupied Times of London*. The Museum
>> of
>> > London has asked for the first of the 1,000 copies to be printed
>> >
>> > http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article3203440.ece
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Apathy is Dead !
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/solarider/5254770064/#/photos/
>> solarider/5254770064/lightbox/
>>
>
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