Shall we encourage this kind of discussion to take place on the 2012 list or at CRD? Could get confusing!<br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2009/6/9 Justin Baidoo-Hackman <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:justinthelibsoc@googlemail.com">justinthelibsoc@googlemail.com</a>></span><br>
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<p>The family is not a model of democracy nor justice!</p>
<p>Sorry to make my first email a contentious one but I want to contest Robin's last email and address his questions:</p>
<div class="im">
<p>Is democracy without justice worth having?</p></div>
<p>Depends who you are and what you define as "justice". I would argue that a just society has never existed but many societies have claimed to be a democracy. The athenian democracy was based on slavery and most "democracies" historically have excluded large sections of people whether by gender, age, race or economic status.</p>
<p>If you believe that a just society shouldn't discriminate on any or some of these things then we can say that democracy and justice are not mutually inclusive.</p>
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<div class="im">Must democracy come before justice?<br></div>Again it depends on your definition of justice! I would claim that liberty is dependent on being able not only to act without coercion but also to enable people to flourish whilst being responsible to themselves and the community they reside.
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<p>Democracy means people rule, if the people don't rule but rather are instructed by others how they can live... can justice be possible? I think not.</p>
<p>What's the reality?<br>I guess that as long as humans are capable of infinite wants on a world with finite resources. We are perpetually limited by our environment (including other people). How there is a question of distribution and management of resources.</p>
<p>It is not true that families are democratic (neither should they be when it involves minors), there is usually patriarchial hierarchy that decides how resources are used and can often exploit their children for the parents gain.</p>
<p>Ah but maybe Robin means the ideal middle class family where the division of labour has been agreed by the parents and the children grow up into considerate and responsible adults.</p>
<p>They probably refrain from fee paying education and private tutors as they want their offspring to learn that applied intelligence and effort rather than the ability to pay for assistance is how to get ahead. They never fail to apply the correct punishment and so the appropriate level of praise and reward to encourage...</p>
<p>Nonsense if you think most people have experienced that. I'm grateful for my parents but it was quite dysfunctional in modest and always unintended ways.</p>
<p>However we could learn that if we treated all peopple as if they were extended family, we could get closer to achieving justice. But this would mean radical change in the economic system we live in. The elites aren't feeling the brotherly love yet and I doubt they ever will. </p>
<p>Societies are made up of differing and competing interests. Elites have conflicting interests with the downtrodden this isn't short-termist thinking it is survival instinct. Survival and maintenance of the elite.</p>
<p>I think communities are built on shared experience and interests. Family is our first experience of community and it can work or can be repressive. </p>
<p>Building physical communities means more than shared space, it means shared ownership, responsibility and meaningful communication.</p>
<p>In this environment, democracy and justice can be built.</p>
<p>Your thoughts</p>
<p>Justin</p>
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<blockquote type="cite">On Jun 9, 2009 4:11 PM, "Robin Smith" <<a href="mailto:robinsmith3@googlemail.com" target="_blank">robinsmith3@googlemail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br>Dear All,<br><br>Thank you for introducing me to the meaning of real democracy last<br>
night, it was entirely rewarding. My parting questions still stand:<br><br>"Is democracy without justice worth having ? Are democracy and justice<br>mutually inclusive activities? Must democracy come before justice ?<br>
What would the people rather have, democracy or justice? Both are<br>ideal but what is the reality ?". Am I being too deep here???<br><br>The term "community" fascinated me too. Is the following text the<br>
language you might have been looking for when describing the term<br>community ?<br><br>"A primitive tribe may not produce much wealth, but all members are<br>capable of an independent life. Each shares all the knowledge<br>
possessed by the tribe. They know the habits of animals, birds, and<br>fishes. They can make their own shelter, clothing, and weapons. In<br>short, they are all capable of supplying their own wants. The<br>independence of all of the members makes them free contracting parties<br>
in their relations with the community."<br><br>If these words inspire you the full chapter and entire book can be found here:<br><a href="http://www.henrygeorge.org/pchp23.htm" target="_blank">http://www.henrygeorge.org/pchp23.htm</a><br>
<br>Isn't it true that we have all belonged to a community possessing<br>ultimate democracy and justice? Our Family. This community does not<br>have to create a debt risk to function. It works on trust using pure<br>credit. No constitution is required. Is greater trust therefore the<br>
key to the re-establishment of a just and functioning democratic<br>society ?<br><br>Looking forward to meeting again soon.<br><br>Brgds<br>Robin.<br><br>--<br>Economics Comment<br><a href="http://gco2e.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://gco2e.blogspot.com/</a><br>
<br>Work<br><a href="http://www.systemicfiscalreform.org/" target="_blank">http://www.systemicfiscalreform.org/</a><br><br>About Me<br><a href="http://fon.gs/robinsmithme/" target="_blank">http://fon.gs/robinsmithme/</a><br>
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<div></div><br>-- <br>"We hear men speaking for us of new laws strong and sweet /Yet is there no man speaketh as we speak in the street.” <br>