<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">re: definition of WEALTH<br><br>John de Rivaz said:<br><br>"In the information age, sharing can increase world wealth enormously, because giving information does not decrease your information."<br><br><span><a target="_blank" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/russell-higgs/70036813/">http://www.flickr.com/photos/russell-higgs/70036813/</a></span><br><br>:) Russell<br><div> </div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><br><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 18pt;"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Robin Smith <robinsmith3@googlemail.com><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Mark Barrett <marknbarrett@googlemail.com><br><b><span style="font-weight:
bold;">Cc:</span></b> campaignforrealdemocracy@lists.aktivix.org<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, 5 August, 2009 18:58:26<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Campaignforrealdemocracy] 'Wealth' Discussion Fwd: [project2012] Re: Statement about Economics & Real Democracy<br></font><br>Why create new and confusing terms. When we already have perfectly adequate ones<br><br>Natural wealth cannot be wealth in the economic sense. No one created<br>it. No economy was required for it to exist.<br><br>To avoid confusion shall we stick to plain old fasioned "wealth".<br>Otherwise we may stray into areas such as declaring "slaves" as<br>natural wealth.<br><br>I'm hoping to show that wealth in the economic sense can only be<br>things that are made through labour, using natural resources.<br><br>Brgds<br><br>2009/8/4 Mark Barrett <<a ymailto="mailto:marknbarrett@googlemail.com"
href="mailto:marknbarrett@googlemail.com">marknbarrett@googlemail.com</a>>:<br>> Here's Dave Wetzel's take on the question. Can we build a statement<br>> around it?<br>><br>> -------------<br>> How about considering man-made wealth and natural wealth?<br>><br>> The former includes buildings, clothes, tools, computers, furniture,<br>> vehicles, machinnery etc.<br>><br>> The latter includes, land, the spectrum, the seas and oceans, sea-life,<br>> plants, wildlife, oil, gas, coal, wood and water.<br>><br>> Capital is man-made wealth used for producing more wealth. So factories,<br>> warehouses, offices, machinery, craftsmen's tools are all capital.<br>><br>> consider a bicycle for sale in a cycle shop window - it is man-made wealth<br>> and is capital.<br>> If the purchaser uses it for pleasure - it is man-made wealth but not<br>> capital - it is
a consumer good.<br>> However, a bicycle used by a window cleaner for his business is capital.<br>><br>> Land is natural wealth. All land value should belong to the community - not<br>> landowners.<br>><br>> 2009/8/4 Mark Barrett <<a ymailto="mailto:marknbarrett@googlemail.com" href="mailto:marknbarrett@googlemail.com">marknbarrett@googlemail.com</a>><br>>><br>>> FYI see below.<br>>> Does anyone else feel like putting forward their own definition of<br>>> wealth?<br>>><br>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>>> Hi Robin<br>>><br>>> I like the idea you've put forward, of doing a statement that even a child<br>>> can understand. With justice in this context aren't we talking about the<br>>> ideal of "economic democracy" ?<br>>><br>>> Democratic justice being about equal rights to share<br>>>
in power, including political-economic power..<br>>><br>>> About wealth: isn't the earth and its various resources, including the<br>>> people who inhabit it and their productions the primary human treasury? In<br>>> my view these real resources should be conserved, and wherever<br>>> possible used appropriately ie to the furtherance of equality, justice,<br>>> ecological stewardship and spiritual well being. Of course individual<br>>> endeavour must be rewarded, but also, somehow, the benefits of humanity's<br>>> collective work, and the basic value of the whole earth should be shared<br>>> equally as a basic starting point.<br>>><br>>> And isn't that where LVT comes in?<br>>><br>>> As Winstanley put it, better than almost anyone "the earth is a common<br>>> treasury for all". [Or,
"the meek shall inherit the earth"] ;<br>>><br>>> Are we both talking about the commonwealth? I am just guessing, am no<br>>> expert.<br>>><br>>> How would others describe wealth? Robin, what is your answer or statement<br>>> regarding (1)?<br>>><br>>> Cheers, Mark<br>>> PS I will forward this discussion to the Project 2011 list to see what<br>>> others come up with.<br>>> 2009/8/4 Robin Smith <<a ymailto="mailto:robinsmith3@googlemail.com" href="mailto:robinsmith3@googlemail.com">robinsmith3@googlemail.com</a>><br>>>><br>>>> Certainly can. Though myself I'm looking for a "just" society first<br>>>> and foremost.<br>>>><br>>>> 1) On Economics: The nature of wealth and how it is produced and<br>>>> distributed, for all. Economic justice<br>>>><br>>>> 2) On Land Value: This is a
subset of economic justice. This is very<br>>>> simple once we have agreed on 1)<br>>>><br>>>> Shall we start by defining what we mean by "wealth"? I'd like to hear<br>>>> what you all have to say about that?<br>>>><br>>>> Brgds<br>>>><br>>>> 2009/8/4 Mark Barrett <<a ymailto="mailto:marknbarrett@googlemail.com" href="mailto:marknbarrett@googlemail.com">marknbarrett@googlemail.com</a>>:<br>>>> > Dear Robin<br>>>> ><br>>>> > Please can we start drafting a statement about economics and land<br>>>> > value,<br>>>> > here, as you see it, in relation to how this will make for a really<br>>>> > democratic society?<br>>>> ><br>>>> > Thanks<br>>>> > Mark<br>>>> > _______________________________________________<br>>>> > Campaignforrealdemocracy
mailing list<br>>>> > <a ymailto="mailto:Campaignforrealdemocracy@lists.aktivix.org" href="mailto:Campaignforrealdemocracy@lists.aktivix.org">Campaignforrealdemocracy@lists.aktivix.org</a><br>>>> > <a href="https://lists.aktivix.org/mailman/listinfo/campaignforrealdemocracy" target="_blank">https://lists.aktivix.org/mailman/listinfo/campaignforrealdemocracy</a><br>>>> ><br>>>> ><br>>>><br>>><br>>> --<br>>> Best Wishes,<br>>><br>>> Dave<br>>><br>>> Dave Wetzel – CEO<br>>> "Transforming Communities".<br>>> Sustainable Transport Policies ▪ Public Finance with Social Inclusion ▪<br>>> Affordable Housing ▪ Economic Land Policies with Justice.<br>>><br>>> Tel: 0208 568 9004<br>>> Intl:+44 208 568 9004<br>>><br>>> Mobile/Cellphone: 07715 32 29 26<br>>> Intl: +44 7715 32 29 26<br>>><br>>>
e-mail: <a ymailto="mailto:davewetzel42@googlemail.com" href="mailto:davewetzel42@googlemail.com">davewetzel42@googlemail.com</a><br>>><br>>> 40 Adelaide Terrace. Great West Road.<br>>> Brentford. LONDON. TW8 9PQ. UK<br><span>>> Web: <a target="_blank" href="http://www.LabourLand.org">www.LabourLand.org</a></span><br>>><br>>> --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~<br>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups<br>>> "Project2012" group.<br>>> To post to this group, send email to <a ymailto="mailto:project2012@googlegroups.com" href="mailto:project2012@googlegroups.com">project2012@googlegroups.com</a><br>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to<br>>> project2012+<a ymailto="mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com" href="mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a><br>>> For more options,
visit this group at<br>>> <a href="http://groups.google.com/group/project2012?hl=en-GB" target="_blank">http://groups.google.com/group/project2012?hl=en-GB</a><br>>><br>>> -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---<br>>><br>><br>><br>><br>> --<br>> "We hear men speaking for us of new laws strong and sweet /Yet is there no<br>> man speaketh as we speak in the street.”<br>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Campaignforrealdemocracy mailing list<br>> <a ymailto="mailto:Campaignforrealdemocracy@lists.aktivix.org" href="mailto:Campaignforrealdemocracy@lists.aktivix.org">Campaignforrealdemocracy@lists.aktivix.org</a><br>> <a href="https://lists.aktivix.org/mailman/listinfo/campaignforrealdemocracy" target="_blank">https://lists.aktivix.org/mailman/listinfo/campaignforrealdemocracy</a><br>><br>><br><br><br><br>-- <br>Economics Comment<br><a
href="http://gco2e.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://gco2e.blogspot.com/</a><br><br>Work<br><a href="http://www.systemicfiscalreform.org/" target="_blank">http://www.systemicfiscalreform.org/</a><br><br>About Me<br><a href="http://fon.gs/robinsmithme/" target="_blank">http://fon.gs/robinsmithme/</a><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Campaignforrealdemocracy mailing list<br><a ymailto="mailto:Campaignforrealdemocracy@lists.aktivix.org" href="mailto:Campaignforrealdemocracy@lists.aktivix.org">Campaignforrealdemocracy@lists.aktivix.org</a><br><a href="https://lists.aktivix.org/mailman/listinfo/campaignforrealdemocracy" target="_blank">https://lists.aktivix.org/mailman/listinfo/campaignforrealdemocracy</a><br></div></div></div><br>
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