<div>Thanks for useful comments Uri - which will help sharpen people's minds and bodies around the shared work for a libertarian future. On reflection I see your point about unconscious anti-semtical inference is well made, although I think today it is both sides of the semitic family, that of the Arabs and the Jews that is likely to bear the brunt of any shared anti-semitic sentiment, and Arab bankers are as far as I am aware a different kettle of fish. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>However I do understand your concerns. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>About your point about "democratic centralism" I also do think you have a point as I tried to indicate in my first post. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>But, in this time I believe there is room, need even for both the central critique/vanguarding of ideas AND the autonomous anarcho-approach, in common cause but also repectfully critical of the limitations of the other. For me, the creative tension between the two can be what makes it all really successful.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Towards a revolution of autonomous, genuinely democratic, but also joined up communities collectively with the whole earth and its people in mind!</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Or as one ultimately great Jew, Jesus PBUH put it: " those that are not against us, are with us" and I for one am not against either of the two strands we have identified. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Respectfully</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Mark<br><br></div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 12 June 2010 09:55, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:uri@riseup.net">uri@riseup.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">Fiona -<br><br>To clarify, it is precisely the combination of "financiers" and "pound of<br>
flesh" that creates the antisemitic connotation. One cannot compare the<br>financiers to Shylock and then pretend that it's a racially neutral<br>metaphor. The AWTW leadership may not have a conscious antisemitic<br>
ideology, but they are still wantonly employing an antisemitic stereotype<br>*against the abstract dimension of capital*. In this they perpetuate the<br>single most important trope of modern antisemitism, which is central to<br>
nazi and neo-nazi ideology.<br><br>For a detailed explanation of this topic see here:<br><a href="http://libcom.org/library/anti-semitism-national-socialism-moishe-postone" target="_blank">http://libcom.org/library/anti-semitism-national-socialism-moishe-postone</a><br>
<br>Self-styled "serous Marxists" like AWTW should really know better.<br><br><br>Mark -<br><br>Your attempt to brush away this issue displays ignorance and flippant<br>insensitivity to historical oppression.<br>
<br>As for AWTW, the idea that someone needs to "steward the movement" is<br>horribly vanguardist and patronizing towards people. This is exactly the<br>problem with all of authoritarian Marxism. Trotskyist groups in particular<br>
cannot be democratized because they work more like cults than political<br>organizations. They avoid revealing their true identity and ideology,<br>operate behind the scenes of front groups and bogus initiatives, and<br>consistently sideline anyone who challenges their unilateral policies and<br>
their control of content and message.<br><br>This is why these Assemblies are anything but autonomous spaces open to<br>being shaped by the participants. They are instead a pre-designed ploy to<br>funnel people into becoming AWTW footsoldiers. The idea that "concerns"<br>
about centralization could be "flagged" at the first assembly is like<br>suggesting that someone intentionally walk into a pit-trap and then<br>negotiate about the size of the ladder.<br><br>Unity is not an end in itself, especially not if its on someone else's<br>
terms. As for "failure, with the right ideals in mind" - they already had<br>their chance in 1917.<br><br>Uri<br>
<div>
<div></div>
<div class="h5"><br><br>Mark Barrett wrote:<br>> Uri see Fiona's comments below aswell as mine.<br>><br>> As usual we cannot ignore Shakespeare, for surely it is HIS anti-semitism<br>> via Shylock's words you are connecting with and then making an awfully big<br>
> assumption over!! People use words from art all the time so please don't<br>> jump to such unwarranted conclusions<br>><br>> Folks, A World to Win are a good bunch and their politics are consistently<br>
> good. I know their core group well, and worked with them closely and to my<br>> satisfaction in the past (2006) and have stayed in ongoing contact and<br>> mutual support ever since. We set out the need for a Peoples Assembly<br>
> based<br>> revolution in 2006 and the present call out and sign up request is a<br>> natural<br>> progression from that and all the work they're been doing since. Read<br>> their<br>> excellent blog and website to see their politics and organisational skills<br>
> are good. They are the best people I know to help steward the revolution<br>> and<br>> their work also appeals to non die hard activsts which is a great sign.<br>> They<br>> are quite theoretical, but at the same time they get stuck in at demos.<br>
><br>> About your concern regarding centralisation, perhaps their org will need<br>> cracking open (as we all, if we hook in, find ways to fully democratise<br>> it)<br>> but surely that is no reason to assume they are wrong. Rather that must be<br>
> something we need to bring to the 1st Peoples Assembly held under the call<br>> out. So thank you for flagging it.<br>><br>> From my side their commitment to "the democratisation of all spheres of<br>> life" is enough and we just need to push that forward at each step to<br>
> ensure the real democracy / anarcho communist movement, when it actually<br>> emerges from (potentially their endeavour) absolutely embodies the<br>> equality<br>> that must come with such sentiments. But surely there is nothing at all<br>
> wrong with a *relatively* democratic group getting the movement ball<br>> rolling, as long as we deal with the issue of centralisation at each stage<br>> in the process?<br>><br>> Best practice will emerge in communities as long as worst practice and<br>
> with<br>> the web Trotsky becomes far less of a possibility as are all able to keep<br>> tabs on what's being said by whom on whose behalf and then deal with it.<br>> Suggest people sign up and help them help us get the show on the road - we<br>
> all have to be in it to win it, so lets unite over this and see what<br>> happens. For in this time of extraordinary potential, I strongly believe<br>> that even failure, with the right ideals in mind will seem as a huge step<br>
> in<br>> the right direction, and hardly catastrophic in sofar as it will show us<br>> how<br>> to do it perfectly the next time.<br>><br>> "A Peoples Art is the Genesis of their Freedom"<br>><br>
> Mark<br>><br>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>> From: Fiona Harrington <<a href="mailto:Fiona.Harrington@brunel.ac.uk">Fiona.Harrington@brunel.ac.uk</a>><br>> Date: 11 June 2010 11:22<br>
> Subject: RE: [project2012] Re: AWTW, centralism and antisemitism<br>> To: <a href="mailto:project2012@googlegroups.com">project2012@googlegroups.com</a><br>><br>><br>> Are you seriously insinuating that those who coined the phrase "Financiers<br>
> have already had their pound of flesh" (which is true enough) are<br>> anti-semitic and thus are being deliberately offensive?<br>> Why are you assuming that anybody reading that line would automatically<br>
> assume that it is anti-semitic? Or again why do you so readily assume that<br>> the word "financiers" is code for Jews? Or is it the combination with the<br>> "pound of flesh" mataphor, or what? I mean you would agree wouldn't you,<br>
> that there are financiers of every shape, colour, gender and religion in<br>> the<br>> world who have had their "pound of flesh" or who are in expectation of<br>> reaping the 'reward' of their greed. It is of course the capitalist system<br>
> itself within which financiers are major players, that is at the back of<br>> our<br>> woes in any case - I am sure you would agree with that!<br>><br>> Fiona<br>><br>><br>> ________________________________<br>
><br>> From: <a href="mailto:project2012@googlegroups.com">project2012@googlegroups.com</a> on behalf of <a href="mailto:uri@riseup.net">uri@riseup.net</a><br>> Sent: Fri 11/06/2010 6:51 AM<br>> To: Deborah Phelan<br>
> Cc: Mark Barrett; <a href="mailto:project2012@googlegroups.com">project2012@googlegroups.com</a>;<br>> <a href="mailto:campaignforrealdemocracy@lists.aktivix.org">campaignforrealdemocracy@lists.aktivix.org</a>;<br>
> <a href="mailto:self-propelled-community-organisations@googlegroups.com">self-propelled-community-organisations@googlegroups.com</a>;<br>> <a href="mailto:buildinglocalgroups@lists.riseup.net">buildinglocalgroups@lists.riseup.net</a>; <a href="mailto:democracyvillage@googlemail.com">democracyvillage@googlemail.com</a>;<br>
> <a href="mailto:election-meltdown-activists-group@googlegroups.com">election-meltdown-activists-group@googlegroups.com</a>; climateorg copenhagen;<br>> <a href="mailto:peopleincommon@lists.riseup.net">peopleincommon@lists.riseup.net</a><br>
> Subject: [project2012] Re: AWTW, centralism and antisemitism<br>><br>><br>><br>><br>> Not irrelevant, just despicable.<br>><br>> Trotskyist front groups like AWTW regularly promote themselves with such<br>
> copycat ploys, sucking the energy out of the real movement.<br>><br>> Their use of overtly antisemitic language ("Financiers have already had<br>> their pound of flesh") is extremely offensive.<br>
><br>> Uri<br>><br>><br>><br>> Deborah Phelan wrote:<br>>> Am i reading this correctly? That this post is not relevant in this<br>>> group?<br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>> On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 7:39 AM, Mark Barrett<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:marknbarrett@googlemail.com">marknbarrett@googlemail.com</a>>wrote:<br>>><br>>>> Great initiative from AWTW, please distribute widely:<br>>>><br>>>> *Build People's Assemblies*<br>
>>> A World to Win urges communities to unite to defeat the attacks by the<br>>>> Conservative-Lib Dem coalition government on public services and living<br>>>> standards already under way.<br>>>><br>
>>> Tens of thousands of public and private sector workers will lose their<br>>>> jobs<br>>>> and local communities be deprived of vital services unless we come<br>>>> together<br>>>> to defeat the government.<br>
>>><br>>>> What Cameron and Clegg call the 'national interest' in reality means<br>>>> doing<br>>>> what's right by the bankers and speculators who are responsible for the<br>
>>> global crisis in the first place.<br>>>><br>>>> We should reject the spending cuts altogether. Financiers have already<br>>>> had<br>>>> their pound of flesh, with taxpayers' bailing out the banks when they<br>
>>> collapsed after running up enormous debts.<br>>>><br>>>> The greatest economic and financial crisis since the 1930s is the<br>>>> responsibility of capitalist corporations and bankers. They have<br>
>>> forfeited<br>>>> the right to run the world.<br>>>><br>>>> Parliament won't defend us and New Labour is equally responsible for<br>>>> the<br>>>> disaster. So A World to Win suggests that we create a network of<br>
>>> People's<br>>>> Assemblies to unite communities.<br>>>><br>>>> People's Assemblies will represent ordinary people's interests, whether<br>>>> they are young or old, in work or unemployed, in the public or private<br>
>>> sector, trade unionists, students, minorities and community groups<br>>>> resisting<br>>>> the cuts.<br>>>><br>>>> The Assemblies will also look beyond a failed economic system where<br>
>>> profit<br>>>> and speculation comes first and towards building a true democracy in<br>>>> place<br>>>> of the sham one we live under now.<br>>>><br>>>> *Register*<br>
>>> Register your support for a People's Assembly in your area and together<br>>>> we<br>>>> can defeat the coalition and change the world.<br>>>> <a href="http://www.aworldtowin.net/frontline/BuildPeoplesAssemblies.html" target="_blank">http://www.aworldtowin.net/frontline/BuildPeoplesAssemblies.html</a><br>
>>><br>>>><br>>>> -.-.- Climate Justice Action Network International Coordination List<br>>>> -.-.<br>>>> POST TO LIST: <a href="mailto:climate09-int@lists.riseup.net">climate09-int@lists.riseup.net</a><br>
>>> UNSUBSCRIBE: send a blank email to<br>>>> <a href="mailto:climate09-int-unsubscribe@lists.riseup.net">climate09-int-unsubscribe@lists.riseup.net</a><br>>>> LISTKEEPERS: <a href="mailto:climate09-int-editor@lists.riseup.net">climate09-int-editor@lists.riseup.net</a><br>
>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>><br>>><br>>> --<br>>> "You have construction workers who are idle, and they're going to be<br>
>> idle<br>>> for twelve months, twenty-four months, thirty-six months. They're not<br>>> going<br>>> to be able to build anything. Let them rebuild everything. We have<br>>> people<br>>> coming home from wars, coming home from prisons, coming out of high<br>
>> school<br>>> with no job prospects whatsoever. Let us connect the people who most<br>>> need<br>>> work with the work that most needs to be done." Van Jones<br>>><br>><br>><br>> --<br>
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<div class="h5">> .<br>> For more options, visit this group at<br>> <a href="http://groups.google.com/group/project2012?hl=en-GB" target="_blank">http://groups.google.com/group/project2012?hl=en-GB</a>.<br>><br>
><br>><br>><br>> --<br>> "We hear men speaking for us of new laws strong and sweet /Yet is there no<br>> man speaketh as we speak in the street.”<br>><br><br><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br>
<br clear="all"><br>-- <br>"We hear men speaking for us of new laws strong and sweet /Yet is there no man speaketh as we speak in the street.” <br>