PS to be inclusive it is worth saying ( sorry should have with 1st post that "Straw Man argument" means crap argument, easy to knock down, looks strong but ain't) ;-)<br><br>Also to note the headline above Purves article, "Enough of this Glastonbury Grievance" which i forgot to paste shows they are grubbing around looking for slurs, all the prejudices coming out such as ant-capitalists on benefits, hippies etc etc. <br>
<br>We are winning so let's get our content clearer and win more!<br><br>Mark<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 24 October 2011 11:20, Mark Barrett <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:marknbarrett@googlemail.com">marknbarrett@googlemail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">Hi again<br><br>Here below is another critical article from the Times, although this time:<br>
(a) they mention the statement and (b) there is a very good video on the web-page. <br><br>The 2-3 minute video is solely of activists in the camp talking (including Robin Smith of these lists) mainly about capitalism or the system with no editorial comment at all. The activists come across very well indeed. If we up our game politically we can win the journalists over IMO.<br>
<br>Unfortunately the video is behind the paywall, so I can't share it. Although it's a pound for one
month subscription at the moment in case anyone can bear the idea of
giving murdoch money.<br><br>I have also pasted below today's news feature on the camp. Incidentally the comments in the paper are ( and have been since the occupation began) more broadly favourable towards the occupation which is perhaps why the video is featured and the editorial today actually touches upon the camp's actual political content, and process ( for the 1st time). <br>
<br>Ciao for now<br><br>Mark
<br><br><b>The St Paul’s protesters have no specific aims; no realistic demands. Occupy London should clear up and clear off<br>Libby Purves<br></b>
<div><div>
<p>The trouble with being raised by the better sort of
nuns is that you come to expect not only high standards but almost
crazily otherworldly ones from anybody with a religious label round his
or her neck. Examination of conscience, confession of faults, loving
your enemy, turning the other cheek, offering up undeserved discomforts
and humiliations for the Holy Souls in Purgatory. All that.</p><p>Even
when you discard your own religious label you remain hard-wired to
expect them in those who haven’t. So, just as in a briefly South African
childhood I was scandalised by one school full of racist Ursuline nuns,
going on about “kaffirs” while wearing pectoral crosses, so I now spend
a lot of time cringing at murderous militant Islamists, mean-spirited
hellfire Evangelicals, Catholic paedophile cover-ups and the rest.</p><p>When
I was younger and even more naive, I remember my shock at finding out
the hard way what hawkish landlords the Church Commissioners were, that
religious publishers are not necessarily pleasant to deal with, and that
the BBC religion department can be as churlish as any other bit of the
Corp. As to those in Northern Ireland who glued “Catholic” and
“Protestant” labels over their un-Christian tribalism, the shame of it
burns still.</p><p>Go on, jeer, I deserve it for crimes against
cynicism. Just blame those kind, clever, humble self-sacrificing Sacred
Heart nuns of my schooldays. But it explains why I was rather pleased
when the Rev Dr Giles Fraser, Canon Chancellor of St Paul’s, was
initially so welcoming to the “Occupy London” campers in Paternoster
Square. He seemed to me to display the correct amount of saintly
recklessness and neo-Franciscan welcome.</p><p>Now Cathedral spokesmen
are saying his “initial reaction” was not made in consultation with the
Dean and Chapter, and Dr Giddings of the General Synod’s House of Laity
speaks sorrowfully of “hindsight”. But a good few Anglican voices are
backing the original welcome, even though it is now causing huge
financial losses as the Cathedral closes, and may torpedo its Advent and
Christmas programme. All very well the campers scoffing “render unto
Caesar”, but in straitened times if the shop and café takings and
donations stop flowing, Caesar isn’t going to keep the heating on.</p><p>So
my main irritation is with the Occupy protesters themselves, and their
bombastic announcement that they may well stay beyond Christmas. That’s
not Christian, kind or reasonable. Unless, of course, the camp really
has the power to be a more effective agent for change than all the
serious political campaigners, community groups, and churches.</p><p>So does it have that power? I have watched the encampment grow; listened to all sides; noted the <i>Telegraph</i> poll saying more than 80 per cent think the demonstrators should leave, and the <i>Guardian</i> one where 82 per cent back them. I have trawled online for the views of occupiers in Wall Street, Germany, Italy and Greece.</p>
<p>Some
are interesting and focused, particularly on the overweening power of
corporations and the kowtowing of governments to big money. Most are
less impressive. I especially like the German lad who arrived without a
tent or sleeping bag because “there are always spares”, and is relaxed
about time because though he lost his job a while ago, he’s on full pay
until the end of November. Who, and what system, does he think is paying
him to sit in someone else’s tent being righteous?</p><p>I have read
the UK group’s “manifesto”. It has nine points. It wants “alternatives”
to the current system, refuses to “pay for the banking crisis”, does not
accept any spending cuts, and wants an end to “global injustice”, which
it appears to say three times in slightly different ways. It supports
all other looming strikes and protests, and (in a brief happy diversion
into practicality) wants regulators to be “genuinely independent of the
industries they regulate”. Hear, hear.</p><p>It concludes with point nine, “This is what democracy looks like.”</p><p>But
its “General Assembly” is not really what democracy looks like: or only
in tiny simple communities. In crowded, complicated nations democracy
is about graft and grunt, checks and balances, committee-work and the
rule of law, justice laboriously meted out, respect for individuals
going about their lawful business with no time to sit around in tents.</p><p>The
slogan “Capitalism is Crisis” has a nice ring to it, but it is neither
true nor clear. Capitalism is one of many imperfect systems. It has its
faults, which elections and clear manifestos exist to check. Socialism
also has its faults, and so does the kind of anarchism that sets up
camps on public property and demands more special treatment than its
normal users.</p><p>Capitalism, in the form of greedy and reckless
banking, has certainly contributed to the present need for public
retrenchment and unwelcome cuts. But so have each of us, in our way: in
amassing household debt and making massive consumer and lifestyle
demands unearned by rising productivity. So did the last Government with
its reckless spending, waste, selling off gold reserves, deregulation,
careless immigration policy and unwise wars. So did the Conservative
Government before them, with its disregard for the national industrial
base, cavalier attitude to mass unemployment and worship of the City.</p><p>Plenty
of things need fixing, but protests have lost their focus. The Jarrow
marchers, Aldermaston CND, Vietnam protesters and Greenham women all had
clear demands, and it was obvious to everyone what would have appeased
them. Even the student protesters against fees were reasonably
well-focused: it was a limited policy they were hoping to reverse. The
trouble with UK Uncut and the idealistic, self-righteous campers of
Occupy London is that it is impossible to think of any clear, feasible
action by an elected government that would satisfy and shift them.</p><p>For
it is, basically, a tented tantrum. A nylon-roofed, media-savvy,
Twitterati, festival-inspired, Glasto-generation sulk. I’m very glad
that St Paul’s was gracious towards it at first. But soon the campers
should return the favour by folding their tents and silently stealing
away. And if they really want public acclaim and sympathy, they won’t
leave one single bit of litter.</p><p><a href="http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/libbypurves/article3203723.ece" target="_blank">http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/libbypurves/article3203723.ece</a><br>
</p><p>
<b>Protesters threaten to keep St Paul’s closed for Christmas</b></p><div>
</div>
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<ul><li>
<img src="http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multimedia/archive/00224/97565475_StPauls_01_224588c.jpg" alt="St Pauls cathedral on Sunday morning as its doors remain closed to worshippers and tourists due to the Anti-Capitalism protest site outside their front doors." width="620" height="413">
<div>
<div>1 of 6</div>
<span>Protesters outside St Paul’s. The cathedral is losing £16,000 a day</span>
<span>Times photographer, Matt Lloyd</span>
</div>
</li><li>
<img src="http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multimedia/archive/00224/97578406_StPauls_224589c.jpg" alt="Activists start an overflow camp in Finsbury Square " width="620" height="413">
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<div>2 of 6</div>
<span>Activists have started an overflow camp in Finsbury Square</span>
<span>Times photographer, Matt Lloyd</span>
</div>
</li><li>
<img src="http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multimedia/archive/00224/97572574_StPauls_01_224727c.jpg" alt="Protesters hold a meeting on the steps of St Pauls’ Cathedral" width="620" height="413">
<div>
<div>3 of 6</div>
<span>Manadatory Credit: Photo by Ray Tang / Rex
Features (1476798a)
Protesters hold a meeting on the steps of St Pauls’ Cathedral
Occupy The London Stock Exchange demonstration, London, Britain – 23 Oct
2011
St Paul’s Cathedral forced to close for the first time since the Second
World War due to the presence of the Occupy The London Stock Exchange
Camp</span>
<span>Ray Tang/Rex Features</span>
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</li><li>
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<div>4 of 6</div>
<span>The City of London has appealed to them to move on peacefully</span>
<span>Andy Rain/EPA</span>
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</li><li>
<img src="http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multimedia/archive/00224/97521953_StPauls_224355c.jpg" alt="Tents belonging to protestors taking part in the ‘Occupy London Stock Exchange’ demonstration remain in place in front of St Paul’s Cathedral" width="620" height="413">
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<div>5 of 6</div>
<span>Their tents fill up the plaza in front of St Paul's</span>
<span>Oli Scarff/Getty Images</span>
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</li><li>
<img src="http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multimedia/archive/00224/97573487_StPauls_224729c.jpg" alt="Finsbury Square" width="620" height="413">
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<span>Anti-capitalist protesters have set up a second camp at Finsbury Square</span>
<span>Carl Court/AFP/Getty Images</span>
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</li></ul>
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<div>
<b> <a href="http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/profile/Ruth-Gledhill" target="_blank">Ruth Gledhill</a> </b>
<span>Religion Correspondent</span>
</div>
<div>
Last updated October 24 2011 12:10<span>AM</span>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p>
St Paul’s Cathedral could be closed for three months as the anti-capitalist
Occupy London protest camp continued to grow in size, expanding into nearby
Finsbury Square.
</p><p>
The protest puts at risk Remembrance Sunday and the Lord Mayor’s Show next
month and services in the run-up to Christmas.
</p><p>
The protesters showed no signs of abandoning their “mission”, remaining
unmoved by the pleas of Dr Marjory Foyle, 89, who spent more than 30 years
as a missionary doctor in Nepal. She wept as she told the protesters that
they were wrong. Speaking in front of the camp of 200 people, she described
going to see St Paul’s during the Blitz, the last time the building was shut
down, and then for only four days. “Every building bar St Paul’s was erased
and I said to myself the hand of God is on St Paul’s.”
</p><p>
Matthew Richardson, councillor for the ward neighbouring St Paul’s, said that
lawyers had advised the City of London Corporation that it could take at
least three months to move the protesters on. He understood that the
cathedral would remain closed as long as there were health and safety
issues.
</p><p>
The City of London authorities warned that the protesters, now into the second
week of their encampment, risk damaging the “integrity” of their movement if
they stayed longer.
</p><p>
The legal situation is similar to that at Parliament Square. If the protesters
do not decide to move voluntarily, City Corporation lawyers may face months
of legal battles to get them out. Stuart Fraser, chairman of the City of
London Corporation policy and resources committee, said: “The City will
accommodate lawful protest but this should not accommodate a long-term
campsite that blocks the highway.”
</p><p>
However, Islington Council, owners of Finsbury Square where the second camp is
located, seemed more sympathetic. Councillor Catherine West, leader of the
council, said: “We support the right to peaceful protest, balanced with the
needs of our community.”
</p><p>
There were no public services at St Paul’s yesterday, nor will there be any
for the foreseeable future but the Dean and Chapter are continuing to say
morning and evening prayer in the cathedral. People who turned up for
services yesterday were directed to nearby St Vedast Foster Lane. Some
worshippers held an impromptu evensong on the cathedral’s steps.
</p><p>
St Paul’s is losing about £16,000 a day because of the decision to close its
doors, 80 per cent of its running costs.
</p><p>
Organisers of the occupation announced the first edition of a newspaper to be
printed on Wednesday, <i>The Occupied Times of London</i>. The Museum of
London has asked for the first of the 1,000 copies to be printed <br></p><p><a href="http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article3203440.ece" target="_blank">http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article3203440.ece</a><br>
</p>
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</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Apathy is Dead ! <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/solarider/5254770064/#/photos/solarider/5254770064/lightbox/" target="_blank">http://www.flickr.com/photos/solarider/5254770064/#/photos/solarider/5254770064/lightbox/</a><br>
<br>