<DIV>At some point a long way down zero seven four two's very long and probably on the whole very good contribution he (or she) said 'I am not advocating a revolution'. </DIV>
<DIV>Question one: Why not?</DIV>
<DIV>Question two: Why don't you read one of the many, many summaries of the ideas of Karl Marx? I think you might find considerable overlap with what you are saying. I can lend you one. </DIV>
<DIV>Ian<BR><BR><B><I>g8-sheffield-request@lists.aktivix.org</I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Send g8-sheffield mailing list submissions to<BR>g8-sheffield@lists.aktivix.org<BR><BR>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<BR>http://lists.aktivix.org/mailman/listinfo/g8-sheffield<BR>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<BR>g8-sheffield-request@lists.aktivix.org<BR><BR>You can reach the person managing the list at<BR>g8-sheffield-owner@lists.aktivix.org<BR><BR>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<BR>than "Re: Contents of g8-sheffield digest..."<BR><BR><BR>Today's Topics:<BR><BR>1. Workshop offer (jo brierley)<BR>2. Gimme yer money! (Dan)<BR>3. Oppenly Classist.. (zerosevenfour two)<BR><BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 1<BR>Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 11:01:05 +0000 (GMT)<BR>From: "jo brierley" <JOBRIERLEY@LYCOS.CO.UK><BR>Subject: [g8-sheffield] Workshop
offer<BR>To: "g8-sheffield@lists.aktivix.org" <G8-SHEFFIELD@LISTS.AKTIVIX.ORG><BR>Message-ID: 170212926926726@lycos-europe.com<BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<BR><BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL: http://lists.aktivix.org/pipermail/g8-sheffield/attachments/20050609/4857a8ba/attachment-0001.html<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 2<BR>Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 12:09:47 +0100<BR>From: Dan <DAN@AKTIVIX.ORG><BR>Subject: [g8-sheffield] Gimme yer money!<BR>To: g8-sheffield@lists.aktivix.org<BR>Message-ID: <42A8237B.9070902@aktivix.org><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed<BR><BR>Allo,<BR><BR>I'm doing a flyer for the Peace-in-the-Park radical G8-related goings on. <BR><BR>Thing is - I'm stony broke. Is there any money in the G8 pot to print <BR>it? If not, I'll go begging elsewhere...<BR><BR>You'll know if ya went to last night's meeting includes:<BR><BR>*'Speakeasy' Info-cafe, wi luvlee scoff and radical info
stalls from G8 <BR>Sheffield folk, Indymedia and others<BR>*Workshop space w/ things like legal advice from a solicitor, direct <BR>action, subvertising from the UHC collective, theatre and action, plus more<BR>*... and we will hopefully also be using the space under CIRCA's awning <BR>to do some stuff too (plus they have their own info-stall in the <BR>caravan, w / books for sale n stuff.)<BR><BR>And hopefully some folk will be doing an open discussion about the G8 <BR>coming to Sheffield, and beyond, at maybe 1 o clock...<BR><BR>I want to print em tomorrow, so if there's there's any spare printing <BR>cash, please let poor broke me know.<BR><BR>Cheers all,<BR><BR>Dan<BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 3<BR>Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 13:02:40 +0000<BR>From: "zerosevenfour two" <ZEROSEVENFOURTWO@HOTMAIL.CO.UK><BR>Subject: [g8-sheffield] Oppenly Classist..<BR>To: g8-sheffield@lists.aktivix.org<BR>Message-ID:
<BAY21-F7AAA5363F4DC667299CFA99FC0@PHX.GBL><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed<BR><BR><BR><BR>The class system is the injustice at the heart of British, and especially <BR>English, society. It is the system that I hate with a passion, and one that <BR>has crushed countless millions of people throughout contemporary history and <BR>even my own family, parents, grandparents and, if I am honest, me too. That <BR>I detest the unfairness and injustice of this system with every fibre of my <BR>being, I cannot state enough. So many millions of people even today, in the <BR>21st century, are still suffering in one form or another, because in the <BR>eyes of greater society they are not worthy; not good enough for polite <BR>society. Not deemed of any value. Surplus to requirements. Third rate. <BR>Passed over for some kid with more privileged status and a silver spoon in <BR>the mouth. The detrimental effect this has had on British society is <BR>impossible to calculate.<BR><BR>The
scale of sheer injustice, and, to be frank, evil, is breathtaking, and <BR>no essay of any kind could fully do it justice. I am one voice in a sea of <BR>voices after all. Few people in British society have ever looked at the <BR>class system full on, without blinkers of one kind or another, or waxing <BR>sentimentally, or in the briefest glances. It is something that by its very <BR>nature is painful to many of us, even those who have benefited unjustly <BR>because of this most unjust of structures. Because I believe that not only <BR>has the system in Britain robbed millions of a full life, it has also <BR>crippled those, who promoted the injustice and evil, into lives of <BR>half-truths, double standards, and lives built on every kind of base <BR>corruption, shoddiness and cowardice. But I am not here to write about the <BR>moneyed and well off, the socially perfect and correctly spoken, I am here <BR>to write about those left out of the wealth, those left out of the good jobs
<BR>and opportunities, those like me born at the bottom of the hierarchy, and to <BR>all intents and purposes, meant to stay there.<BR><BR>Class is such an emotive issue, and it is true that if a middle class person <BR>meets a working class person, there will very likely be a sense of angst and <BR>uncertainty on both sides; the animosities, though well buried, would not <BR>take long to rise to the surface. And in Britain certainly, there is a <BR>tendency for people, as groups of all kinds, and most definitely class <BR>groups, to polarise against each other, in many ways and for many reasons. A <BR>working class person, seeing what he or she thinks are middle class effete <BR>tendencies, may particularly become harder and less genteel to counter what <BR>he or she thinks are base middle class values. A middle class person, seeing <BR>what he or she thinks are base working class values, whatever they may be, <BR>might very well have a tendency to shun these things. And of course,
there <BR>is then a general national tendency to despise what you don't understand, to <BR>what you find distasteful, and so on. Of such is the British class system, <BR>in highly oversimplified form. Class in Britain goes far deeper than this; <BR>in real terms, it could be said to be about groups who are related in their <BR>44similar life chances, job opportunities, levels of education, access to all <BR>the good, or bad, things in life and better, or worse, opportunities in <BR>general. Working class people will find that many doors to them are closed, <BR>because they lack a decent education, a 'decent' accent, they live in an <BR>inner city or council estate or poor neighbourhood, that they come from poor <BR>backgrounds of some kind, and so on. Much of this might be inferred, some of <BR>it is spoken about, and a lot of it is internalised over the course of a <BR>person's life, and in society in general. A working class person will <BR>definitely for the most part internalise
negative values, a belief that he <BR>or she should keep their head down, accept their lot, and hope one day to be <BR>lucky.<BR><BR>This is how I felt for chunks of my life. I don't feel this way anymore, nor <BR>do I believe that any person has to accept anything in life they do not wish <BR>to. It is about understanding negatives, and it is more importantly <BR>understanding positives in life. If we as working class people allow other <BR>more privileged types to an unchallenged position in all areas of life, we <BR>can't complain when they do just that, maintain a privileged, and of course <BR>increasingly unjust, position. If, on the other hand, as we hold out for <BR>better lives ourselves, better jobs, better educations, better housing and <BR>better all round lifestyles, whilst at the same challenging unjust privilege <BR>of all kinds, we make our own very immediate environments more just and more <BR>fairer. It isn't about hating and despising, we can leave that to our
<BR>so-called betters and superiors, it is about finding a liveable and workable <BR>reality for working class people, that enables us personally and as groups <BR>of people of all kinds to have better lives, for ourselves, our families and <BR>friends, and our children to come. It is that simple.<BR><BR>I speak for myself when I write this, and at the same time as someone who is <BR>highly educated, well read, literate, cultured and so on, but for many years <BR>I have always felt out of sorts, and that sooner or later someone would find <BR>me out and send me back to the craphole I grew up in. I have done well for <BR>myself in some ways, getting the aforementioned degree at university and, at <BR>this time of writing, a reasonable job as a journalist, and someone who <BR>likes to pursue hobbies of various kinds; not bad for a kid who grew up in a <BR>Liverpool slum! But, as with all happy-ever-after stories, I have had hard <BR>times and bad times too. I have often felt inferior
to other people, at <BR>times this has overwhelmed me and made me feel less and smaller than other <BR>people. It is not something I can quantify, or explain or understand easily, <BR>and best left as a simple explanation; that at times I feel less than other <BR>people. I believe a large part of this is because of the British class <BR>system, and the nonsensical way British people have related to each other as <BR>groups and individuals for about the last 200 years or so. Is this what we <BR>want as a nation, what we demand for ourselves, and the next generation <BR>after us? It is not what I want for myself, or any member of my family <BR>anyway. It is up to each reader to think about this for themselves. At any <BR>rate, I have often felt inferior compared to other people. It has skewed my <BR>relationships, friendships, family relationships and how I felt about myself <BR>over the many years of my life. Today, I feel better and stronger. On a <BR>national scale, these type of
feelings create vast waves of anxiety, <BR>animosity, crime, injustice, indifference, and vast gulfs between those who <BR>have, often in plenty, and those who have very little of anything at all. <BR>This is the core of all the class injustice, the vastly unequal resource <BR>distribution.<BR><BR>It is not just that there are poor people, and people who are richer, it is <BR>the philosophy that often follows such inequalities, philosophies that, more <BR>often than not, justify and even promote base and rank injustice, division <BR>and unfairness. Why does our Head of State, the Queen, who has a private <BR>fortune of hundreds of millions of pounds, get millions more each year from <BR>taxpayers, whilst millions of ordinary workers make do on a fraction of <BR>this, and all the while working hard and paying taxes? It is what I call the <BR>'philosophy of insanity', and it is the philosophy that underpins much of <BR>the unequal relations that still exist in the British Isles at
this time, <BR>circa mid-2004. A philosophy that allows rich people to prosper, even when <BR>they already have everything they need and more anyway, whilst denying a <BR>basic standard of living to many more British citizens. Unless, and until, <BR>this 'philosophy of insanity' is tackled, and tackled head on, and it is <BR>brought into the public forum, we will continue to live in an unjust <BR>society, and an unjust world. I don't accept of course that any human <BR>society, or any human relationship of any kind, at this time will ever be <BR>perfect in entirety, but it is up to us who want and wish to change society <BR>to do so; if we can't change it, we can write about, if we can't write <BR>about, we can debate it, and if we can't change the whole world, or even <BR>Britain, we can change ourselves, and our attitudes to privilege and a <BR>fairer democracy for all. It is understanding this, that the individual is <BR>important, that change does and will happen, for you and
me. Why shouldn't a <BR>working class kid from the wrong side of the tracks get on, make a better <BR>life and have money for once? It is learning to be positive, when all around <BR>might be negative, that better life chances spring out of the air. We of <BR>course have to reach out for them, and help others less fortunate to do the <BR>same.<BR><BR>Justice; justice is a big word, and an idea that cuts through everything, <BR>that cleans everything, and makes fairness and tolerance where there might <BR>be no such things. Justice for working class people, for people like you and <BR>me, is and has been in very short supply. When we demand justice, for <BR>ourselves, our families, friends and cherish justice as a higher form of <BR>society, I believe that we go in the right direction. Justice is where it is <BR>at; where there is justice, there will be harmony, peace, friendship, where <BR>there is a lack of justice there will be indifference, hatred, oppression <BR>and a lack of
any good will of any kind. Normal people cry out for justice <BR>all over the world! Then we should hold justice to our hearts, demand it for <BR>the whole world, and not least for ourselves. It is in just relationships, <BR>be that marriage, friendships, an office, or even on the street, that humans <BR>can fire on all cylinders and be the best that all their capabilities and <BR>ambitions allow. It is in a ready justice that we can all stand on the same <BR>ground, demand a better life for one and all, and make Britain, even the <BR>world, a better place to live in. The mere notion of justice itself drives <BR>away corruption, unfairness and non-level playing fields of every kind. <BR>Justice is the ideal that all people should live up to, and the ideal and <BR>reality we should want for ourselves, and the people around us. For justice, <BR>we need to be just. To be just, we need to accept that we are on a level <BR>playing field, and that what is truly good for one, is generally
good for <BR>others too.<BR><BR>When working class people dream, when little people dream, the whole world <BR>sits up and takes notice. It is not the ambitions of the rich and pampered <BR>elites that have really ever shaped the world, it is always the hungry, the <BR>impoverished, the slum dweller, the forgotten who shape the world and give <BR>society impetus and focus. Throughout history, contemporary history and <BR>today, this has often been the case. When you and I dream, and when we want <BR>to make our lives better, and have what the rich and powerful and the <BR>pampered take for granted, we change the world, and we change ourselves too. <BR>This is an important point. Why shouldn't you have a better education, a <BR>better job, a good business, a nice house? Why shouldn't you dream, have <BR>ambition, believe that good things can happen to you? They can, and they <BR>will, if you are prepared to dream, work towards the goals you want, and <BR>look at life in the
long-term. Nothing happens overnight, but takes time and <BR>a change in attitudes, life goals, outlook and personal ambitions. Even the <BR>very idea of your dreams taking shape and hold in the real world is in <BR>itself for many working class people a revelation, something that I think <BR>many working class people do not do or do not believe is possible for them. <BR>It is possible, but it takes time to shape a good character and a winning <BR>mindset from a mindset and lifestyle that might be used to negative <BR>realities and situations of many different kinds. It is a revelation, and a <BR>revolution in thought processes that shapes the world we live in. Thinking <BR>alone will not bring about change, but thought and action combined can bring <BR>about the results everyone desires. Everything built, written, made, cooked <BR>and so much more besides is after all merely the result of someone's idea at <BR>some time or other. So, the world revolves on thought processes. For a
<BR>working class person, sometimes the only thing you may have are wonderful <BR>ideas, and dreams of a better life. What starts in the head, can take shape <BR>in reality. It is holding onto the dream, and pursing it that make dreams <BR>worthwhile.<BR><BR>As working class people, we have a latent energy that generally is <BR>underdeveloped and underused, an energy that often comes out negatively or <BR>destructively in some way, to the detriment of that person, or others around <BR>them. It is understanding this very potent force, this nervous energy, and <BR>harnessing it to our better advantage, that any person can make a better <BR>life for themselves. To waste such enormous potential, such enormous energy, <BR>is to waste one's talents, dreams and goals and to muddy the path that we <BR>can all find if we look hard enough. It is accentuating the positive, and <BR>downplaying the negative. It is being magnanimous in success, and <BR>matter-of-fact in defeat. It is always being
open minded to a better life, <BR>and resilient in finding that better life. It is using that powerful energy <BR>for positive results, and making our own lives and the people around us <BR>better, happier and more productive. It is moving on from such passing <BR>systems as class, racism, and injustice of very kind, and finding a better <BR>place spiritually, emotionally, economically and the place very much where <BR>you wish to be. Of such is the reality of the enormous human potential each <BR>of us has at our fingertips, assuming we make use of it. When working class <BR>people unleash this energy, it is an energy that is unstoppable, and <BR>properly controlled and directed, can take the lowest person to the highest <BR>place and the best outcome. It is this that I myself labour under at this <BR>time, and this idea that nourishes me and gives me hope.<BR><BR>Working class people are naturally and obviously more democratic and <BR>egalitarian in nature. It is something I have
known, about myself and <BR>working class people in general, for a long time. Those born without <BR>inherited wealth or privilege of any kind seem, in most cases at least, to <BR>believe almost instinctively in social justice, democracy, egalitarianism <BR>and equal relations of every kind. It is strange in fact why working class <BR>people are attacked so, when these beliefs come to most working class people <BR>almost by default. They are good beliefs, they make the most sense, are the <BR>basic tenets of many religions, including of course Christianity, and to all <BR>people in the world are the values that each individual wants for him or <BR>herself and family, friends and the like. They are self-evident, need no <BR>real explanation, and the world over craves them; where they are, in nations <BR>and societies, people desire them the more, where they are not, in military <BR>juntas and tyrannies, people desire them, cry out for them and have <BR>revolutions to acquire them!
They are, by all accounts, highly desirable <BR>virtues. And because there is and has been, a societal enmity towards <BR>working class people, working class culture, working class ideology and <BR>values, it goes without saying that values such as equality, social justice, <BR>egalitarianism and a more fair and equal society are dismissed and often <BR>also held in contempt. Do you see what I am trying to say? That a society <BR>based on genuine working class values, not in some hippy-dippy, or <BR>Communist, or even political way, but a heartfelt and honest way, would be a <BR>society that promoted justice and equality as a matter of course. This would <BR>involve a fairer wage system, a fairer tax system that took into account <BR>people's ability to pay, a less centralised and more localised bureaucracy, <BR>more accountability from our public servants, a nationalised public <BR>transport system to name but a few important things. The knock-on effect of <BR>such just and fair
policies, though taking a while to adapt to, would make <BR>Britain healthier economically and socially, and would make Britain a nation <BR>more genuinely at ease with itself. We would be, in almost all senses of the <BR>word, citizens of a free nation and not subjects of a once great country but <BR>now living on past glories. I know which I would choose given the chance. <BR>And I know what many other British people would choose too given the same <BR>chance. It is what many of us have only ever half-dared to dream. Class and <BR>prejudice harks back to a bygone age of unspeakable divisions of all kinds, <BR>that, for the most part, have thankfully been eclipsed or forgotten. It is <BR>living on past glories, or looking to build a better tomorrow for us all. <BR>The choice, I believe, is yours and mine.<BR><BR>The injustice of vastly unequal resource distributions is at the heart of <BR>the real problem with the class system, in fact any system which is based on <BR>some form of
unfair difference, be that class, racism, religious <BR>differences, language and culture differences, chauvinism and so on. The <BR>wealth distribution in the world is so badly out of tilt, that even in the <BR>wealthy parts of the world, like Britain, America, Continental Western <BR>Europe, there is much poverty and lack of opportunity, even when we are <BR>surrounded all the time by the trappings of wealth. Class, racism and so on, <BR><BR>=== message truncated ===</BLOCKQUOTE>