<DIV>Thanks very much for your excellent thoughts on conspiracy theories Jase. Well done! No doubt somebody will respond to say how wrong you are but your posting was a breath of fresh air.</DIV>
<DIV>Ian<BR><BR><B><I>g8-sheffield-request@lists.aktivix.org</I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Send g8-sheffield mailing list submissions to<BR>g8-sheffield@lists.aktivix.org<BR><BR>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<BR>http://lists.aktivix.org/mailman/listinfo/g8-sheffield<BR>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<BR>g8-sheffield-request@lists.aktivix.org<BR><BR>You can reach the person managing the list at<BR>g8-sheffield-owner@lists.aktivix.org<BR><BR>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<BR>than "Re: Contents of g8-sheffield digest..."<BR><BR><BR>Today's Topics:<BR><BR>1. Re: London bombing is also a conspiracy (Kathleen Holliday)<BR>2. UK Indymedia - It was meant to be a carnival.....<BR>(imc-uk-tech@lists.indymedia.org)<BR>3. UK Indymedia - Demonstration at Gleneagles today<BR>(imc-uk-tech@lists.indymedia.org)<BR>4. Re: London bombing is also a conspiracy
(Jase)<BR><BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 1<BR>Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:18:53 +0100<BR>From: "Kathleen Holliday" <NOWORRIS@BLUEYONDER.CO.UK><BR>Subject: Re: [g8-sheffield] London bombing is also a conspiracy<BR>To: <G8-SHEFFIELD@LISTS.AKTIVIX.ORG><BR>Message-ID: <006a01c58bbc$c59de8e0$9800a8c0@florence><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<BR><BR>Also, the media said over and over that there was NO evidence to suggest<BR>suicide bombers at the time.<BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 2<BR>Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:13:03 +0100<BR>From: imc-uk-tech@lists.indymedia.org<BR>Subject: [g8-sheffield] UK Indymedia - It was meant to be a<BR>carnival.....<BR>To: g8-sheffield@lists.aktivix.org<BR>Message-ID: <E1DUB31-0000XI-8F@TRAVEN.INDYMEDIA.ORG><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<BR><BR>indymedia.org.uk Email
Forward<BR>------------------------------------------------------------ <BR><BR>It was meant to be a carnival.....<BR><BR>angelwings, 04.07.2005 20:30<BR><BR>but it turned into a riot. Or so you'd think, from the police tactics at the carnival for Full Enjoyment, here in Edinburgh today.<BR><BR>Billed as a carnivalesque parade through Edinburgh, calling for No Wage Slavery, No Benefits Slavery. No Debt Slavery, we were meant to visit 'places responsible for the increasingly precarious way in which we experience life and work'. Instead, we were subjected Police Repression like like I've never seen before.<BR>Maybe because the words 'anarchist rally' were banded around, or maybe because they are practising for Wednesday - the start of G8 - for whatever reason, today we have had a taste of Police State and I found it very frightening.<BR>We had a little appetisers in Sheffield when we hosted the Home Affairs G8 - we made them very welcome - today the police had total control of the
streets, cordoning off whole areas , moving in at the drop of a hat , moving us away, holding us penned in , threatening us with riot gear, shields, helmets, horses and their flerescaent chorus-line (see later).<BR>They were a well-oiled machine, able to hear a fart from streets away and respond in seconds. Most had ear pices, obeying orders, grouping and regrouping , moving forward, cleaning us on and on.<BR>Why do anarchists cross the road? To get to the other side, silly. Early on in the day, 30 women and men crossed the road at Scotts Monument, the police tried to stop them. In a higgley-piggle game of tag, the police played lollypop-lady, chasing and grabbing people as they passed.<BR>They seemed scared at first: 'Keep up, Andy,' a cop shouted to another. Later, the language of police repression - new to me- revealed their training and preparation: ' Keep that dressing right , lads, keep that gap ' they shouted as they marched forward together. But the most incredible police
line was when they boxed us in at Channing Street. They stood very close and laced together like leaves or petals, a flurescent chorus line. It was theatrical and almost poetic. They must have some kind of drama coach on how to fix their face for that line up: stern , hard, non-human. I was tempted to ask 'what is your motivation?'<BR>They boxed us in at Exchange Tower, a fairy samba drummed til their arms dropped off. After an hour, there was a scuffle as cops moved in to pull off balaclavas , and wearers retaliated.<BR>A woman was smashed in the back and carried away dazed. Someone was sick, and a man in black danced on a nearby roof, unzipped his flys, pretended to piss, showed us his bum, all overlooked by Exchange Tower workers.<BR>I thought of Twin Towers- an incredible image, banks of glass columns of besuited office workers leaning out , trying to see what was going on. The anarchist danced and waved a black flag from his rooftop perch. They wore identy labels and tags: the
anarchist took off his socks sniffed them and chucked them into the cheering crowd below - collective freedom alongside corporate individulisation.<BR>They let us out one by one, searched bags, lined us up , we talked to their video camera, giving name address and date of birth. I decided not to lie but gave my information with as much defiance as I could muster.<BR>We walked back through line after line of police, vans, riot cops in full helmet gear, etc, etc. All for a carnival. Even SMP, Colin Fox, who had tried to come to our rescue, was able to do little.<BR>Back on Princes Street, overlooked by Edinburgh catle, more riot police, more box ins . About 500 this time, in the park, most nothing to do with G8 protests - lots of parents with children- held for hours with no food or water just because the police wanted to clear the street.<BR>Lasting images - riot cops ramming their riot shields forming Roman legion defences - threatening three teenage girls dressed in pink tee shirts
and pony tales, giggling into their mobile phone. And the convoy of 50 police white vans speeding down Princess Street - responding to, god knows what, but they had to earn their overtime. <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Source of this emailed article:<BR>http://publish.indymedia.org.uk/en/2005/07/316124.html<BR><BR><BR><BR>Attached comment from angelwings:<BR>Hi - These are two pieces I wrote from Edinburgh and posted on to Sheffield Indymedia.<BR>Love alice<BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL: http://lists.aktivix.org/pipermail/g8-sheffield/attachments/20050718/c6206749/attachment-0001.html<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 3<BR>Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:15:01 +0100<BR>From: imc-uk-tech@lists.indymedia.org<BR>Subject: [g8-sheffield] UK Indymedia - Demonstration at Gleneagles<BR>today<BR>To: g8-sheffield@lists.aktivix.org<BR>Message-ID: <E1DUB4V-0000Y6-OE@TRAVEN.INDYMEDIA.ORG><BR>Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"<BR><BR>indymedia.org.uk Email Forward<BR>------------------------------------------------------------ <BR><BR>Demonstration at Gleneagles today<BR><BR>angelwings, 06.07.2005 22:28<BR><BR>The cops tried many tactics to stop us getting there, but in the end more than 5,000 demonstrated as close as we could to the permineter fence around the Gleneagles Hotel and the Hated Eight.<BR><BR>Actions in Edinburgh started early when activists attempted to blockade the Sheradon Hotel at 6am, where Japanese G8 delegates were staying.<BR>Later, at 9.30am, several coaches were delayed in Edinburgh by police. We were told that the protest march in Gleneagles had been cancelled. <BR>The reason - violence in the centre of Scotland, the march now constituted a public safety risk. We were given the option to get off the bus and go home. <BR>After another hour and a sit down protest in the road by activists on another bus , we finally got going. <BR>Police tactics were to delay us, it
seemed, to diminish the power of the protest by having us arrive in dribs and drabs. Or not at all.<BR>En route, we heard of a 2 hour successful blockade of the Edinburgh- Gleneagels Road; of people prevented from leaving Stirling rural convergence camp, then setting off to walk to Gleneagles (poor sods), and of frustration of those left behind in Edinburgh, denied access to coaches, despite having tickets.<BR>We arrived in Auchterarder, the village closest to Gleneagles, 4 hours later, having taken detours due to roads closed or blockaded (we hoped).<BR>A surreal inflated barage balloon hovered above Gleneagals golf course and marked the spot. Here they are,the Big Boys, come and get them - it seemed to say. Actually, it was a sneaky heat seeking device.<BR>Most of the windows of houses and shops in Auchterarder had Make Poverty History stickers and locals smiled and waved. It was a relief.<BR>We seemed like invading armies, us and the police , into their quiet community. But
elderly ladies on posh patios raised a glass to us, and children giggled at the Clown Army, who kept us entertained.<BR>Sugar and Spice, the famous cake shop was selling G8 Pie, made of mince 'because they talk it' and Dumplings 'because they are'. We bought some.<BR>The Gleneagals Hotel was surrounded by a 5 mile perimiter fence. We could not see the hotel and were kept away from the fence except at one point, when the march turned a corner on a narrow rural road and we had to progress slowly in two and threes. The police were mob-handed. <BR>Tensions grew - some protesters breached the fence at this point, and threw it at police who instantly responded, calling up more riot cops and swinging out with their coshes.<BR>Organisers urged us on through the bottle neck:'This is a peaceful demonstration, come on, keep moving, the eyes of the world are on us, you're doing great'. I felt like I were giving birth.<BR>Protestors dashed out on to the field and tried to reach the fence on the
other side , but were forced back by cops on horse back and riot cops. <BR>Over head, Chinook helicptors whirred , flew close, and landed, dicharging cop reinforcements like ugly grey insects.<BR>We walked on, flanked by masked riot cops. <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Source of this emailed article:<BR>http://publish.indymedia.org.uk/en/2005/07/316896.html<BR><BR><BR><BR>Attached comment from angelwings:<BR>Number two. <BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL: http://lists.aktivix.org/pipermail/g8-sheffield/attachments/20050718/fe7380d4/attachment-0001.html<BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 4<BR>Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 03:07:52 +0100<BR>From: "Jase" <SPODULIKE@FREEUK.COM><BR>Subject: Re: [g8-sheffield] London bombing is also a conspiracy<BR>To: <G8-SHEFFIELD@LISTS.AKTIVIX.ORG><BR>Message-ID: <000b01c58c06$af598860$a5917ed4@z><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<BR><BR>There are many
conspiracy theories knocking about on this one, as there are<BR>for the 9/11 attacks, however my question would simply be. There are four men<BR>who are now dead, four men who unannounced went to London, who were seen<BR>together and yet whose belongings have turned up at four seperate locations.<BR>Are the families of these men in on the conspiracy? Are hundreds of police,<BR>rescue services, forensic teams, security services and so on?<BR><BR>There is precedent of course. The bombing of Russian apartment blocks, blamed<BR>at the time on Chechen terrorists, is now widely believed to be the work of<BR>the KGB. KGB agents were discovered at another apartment block at the same<BR>time, in the process of setting another bomb. To justify the Chechen conflict,<BR>in order to maintain control in the face of increasing opposition to the war,<BR>many many murders were committed. Yet despite Russia being a state more<BR>secretive and oppressive than ours the truth is slipping
out.<BR><BR>Blair does not need to justify the actions in Iraq, it's not as if he is<BR>fighting for the Empire or that the British public is baying for withdrawal.<BR>The main reason for pullout is economic, it's costing too much to remain.<BR>There is the hope that a timetabled withdrawal and full handover of power<BR>would announce Iraqi independance and bring the insurgent attacks not related<BR>to the Iraqi resistance proper (i.e. the suicide bombings) to a halt. But<BR>sadly I fear Iraq has become a batteground. A withdrawal may just leave a<BR>bloodied mess, opened to corporate greed, armed gangs, regional infighting,<BR>the gradual collapse of Iraqi state and identity.<BR><BR>Bush says "Foreign fighters are travelling into Iraq to make it a front line<BR>in the war on terror. And I would rather defeat them there than face them in<BR>our own country". A rare moment of truth which shows his disgusting prejudice<BR>for the lives of non-Americans. Iraqis have no wish to be a
'front line'.<BR>Then again there are mutterings in the Arab world over the indiscriminate<BR>deaths caused by the bombers and maybe this pressure will bring about a halt.<BR>However the source and motivation of the worst atrocities is not clear. Also,<BR>Iraq is becoming increasingly unnappealing as an economic fillet, the west may<BR>want to get out and just leave the door ajar for the oil to flow through. A<BR>full withdrawal may draw much of the sting which drives young men into the<BR>arms of criminals and fanatics, both in Iraq and the UK, however wounds of all<BR>kinds take time to heal.<BR><BR>I read through the list of the dead from the London bombing today, each one of<BR>those deaths is a tremendous loss, a sad waste of life. When the deaths are<BR>far away, when soldiers or politicians can dismiss them as foreign or<BR>subversive or so on, then murder is easy. The 200 000 deaths in Iraq should<BR>not be forgotten, the stupid willfull bloody actions of Bush, Blair and
those<BR>who let the invasion of Iraq happen should not be forgotten. Each single death<BR>causes the same trauma, the same grief, as each single death in the London<BR>bombing. Over the last week Iraq has lost twice the number of people to<BR>suicide bombings as London, and for them it is now a regular event. This is<BR>our gift to them.<BR><BR>The spreading of hate, the cancer which eats at our human soul, needs to be<BR>stopped. The division of people in Iraq into Kurd, Shia and Sunni. Labels worn<BR>which divide brother from brother. The division of people in Britain into<BR>those who fit the stereotype, the 'look' of a muslim or south asian or<BR>terrorist. The poisoning of future generations with prejudice, after<BR>Palestine, after Iraq, after 9/11, after Iraq, after Bali, Madrid and now<BR>London. Each time forcing sides to be taken according to religion and<BR>physicality rather than the mind which lives within those borders. Ignorance<BR>feeding upon ignorance, division
feeding upon division, the loss of identity<BR>with the society which would be a cradle, the finding of identity with<BR>extremism of whatever form.<BR><BR>Terrorists are those few who try to impose their will by violence on a mass of<BR>people. They are Saddam Hussain, George Bush, Osama Bin Laden, Tony Blair,<BR>Vladamir Putin et al. Wrapped up in nationalistic pride, pre-judging the worth<BR>of thousands of lives, thinking their knowledge greater, thinking their<BR>beliefs the most just. To fight terrorism we must target the few. Anything<BR>else shows the same prejudice, the same forcing of sides upon people, the<BR>painting of prejudice in broad strokes. "If you are a Shiite then your death<BR>is just", "if you are an American then your death is just", "if you are a<BR>Muslim then your death is just", "if you are British then your death is just",<BR>but who is just Shiite or just American or just Muslim or just British? People<BR>have names, lives, loves beyond any word or
label.<BR><BR>In our democracy we have the absolute responsibilility to reject violence, to<BR>not assume that our way of dividing the world is the right way, to not claim<BR>any right to expend lives other than our own. It is not a perfect system but<BR>it is built upon a steady line of resting power from terrorists, from kings to<BR>barons to the ruling class to the state. To go further we must confront, to<BR>publicise, to make clear injustice. To reject the comfort of the minority and<BR>push for all to have a voice. In one sense it is within touching distance, yet<BR>each step opens up a landscape of possiblity stretching to a far horizon.<BR><BR><BR>O.k., think I was overdue for a rant, apologies. And now I'll just post my<BR>comments on the conspiracy theory...<BR><BR>From: "Kathleen Holliday" <NOWORRIS@BLUEYONDER.CO.UK><BR>> Also, the media said over and over that there was NO evidence to suggest<BR>> suicide bombers at the time.<BR><BR>The reason it was thought not to
be suicide bombers was the timing of the<BR>bombs, virtually simultaneous explosions on the tube trains. Now it is thought<BR>the bombs must have been set off by hand. After any event the media story is<BR>based on guesswork, often quite lazy guesswork. On 9/11 it was extrodinary how<BR>one news programme would be guessing on matters stated as fact hours previous<BR>on another channel.<BR><BR>The email which kicked this off is really doing the rounds, widely publicised<BR>by Alex Jones. To be fair the right wing media does this stuff all the time<BR>(see Al Franken's excellent book "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them" to<BR>see how) but this rumour mill thing gets to me as it tends to go unanswered.<BR>For me conspiracy theories start with prejudice, that a small group of people<BR>somehow controls everything. I'll agree that a pretty small group of people do<BR>control a great deal, but to think that no-one else ever does anything bad is<BR>either naiive or narrow
minded.<BR><BR>Here are some questions:<BR>Do you really believe for a second that guys with 8 month babies and guys who<BR>taught disabled schoolchildren would want to blow themselves up and kill other<BR>innocent people and leave their passports so their families could get in<BR>trouble?<BR><BR>The bombers could have been kind, generous, caring souls. However they had a<BR>belief that something needed to change and they believed they knew how to do<BR>it. What gets me is the way people find suicide bombing to be somehow more<BR>reprehensible than killing where a person does not sacrifice their own life.<BR>They passionately believed what they were doing was right. "Greater love hath<BR>no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends". They laid<BR>down their lives for what they believed in. A noble idea if it weren't so<BR>stupidly misguided. If four men arrived at the gates of downing street and<BR>vowed to starve to death unless justice was done, that would have
been true<BR>sacrifice, but it wouldn't have had as much impact and when you are a true<BR>believer you think that no impact is big enough.<BR><BR>Many British newspapers reported on anti terror drills weeks and months before<BR>the bombings, but none of them picked up on the biggest story of them all, a<BR>drill on the day, the same places at the exact same time of the attack. Why?<BR><BR>Because the fear of a terror attack was and is widespread. The BBC ran a<BR>similar scenario weeks before. Not that I can see what relevance such<BR>exercises have to the bombing whatever, unless it provided inspiration.<BR><BR>1. Why would suicide bombers carry personal documents?<BR><BR>Why not? The bombing was a statement, something that could have been done with<BR>pride and belief.<BR><BR>2. How is it that paper documents can survive bomb blasts that rip apart steel<BR>and people?<BR><BR>Paper can be blown around, like snow, without disintigrating. After 9/11<BR>sheets of paper showered from
the towers. Steel and people can also blow<BR>around like snow but that destroys what they are.<BR><BR>3. The super steel ids stayed at the exact same place near the "suicide<BR>bombers"?<BR><BR>The bomb sites were carefully searched over a wide area, not a pleasant job by<BR>all accounts.<BR><BR>4. If you were going to use four bombs in four locations, blowing yourself<BR>up in the process, why would you leave extra bombs in your hire car for the<BR>police to find?<BR><BR>These weren't professional bombers, these were people who were doing this for<BR>the first and last time. Also, explosives were found, no indication of 'extra<BR>bombs'.<BR><BR>5. HOW DID THESE NICE YOUNG LADS GET THEIR HANDS ON MILITARY GRADE HIGH<BR>EXPLOSIVES AND IF THEIR HOUSES WERE FULL OF THEM, ENOUGH TO WARRANT THE<BR>EVACUATION OF 600 PEOPLE FROM THE AREA THEN WOULDNT THEIR FAMILIES HAVE<BR>NOTICED?<BR><BR>They apparently got hold of the explosives from this
guy<BR>http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Possible_%27mastermind%27_of_London_bombings_captu<BR>red_in_Egypt<BR><BR>Their houses weren't full of explosive. People were evacuated as a precaution<BR>but afaik explosives were only found at one house. And no, I doubt the<BR>families would have noticed a carrier bag stuffed round the back of whatever.<BR>Having said that there is no indication as to the amounts of explosives found.<BR><BR>7. Why did not the bus cameras work?<BR><BR><BR>=== message truncated ===</BLOCKQUOTE>