[HacktionLab] post-OHM2013 (3)

Patrice Riemens patrice at xs4all.nl
Fri Aug 9 16:32:16 UTC 2013


Hi All,

As I wrote earlier (or somewhere else) I am basically done with the
post-OHM/N^2 blues. I wish I had read the following text a bit earlier,
as, immo, it says all that needs to be said. Maybe that's also what Martin
is refering to ('many different forums'):

https://pad.puscii.nl/p/readsomefuckingmarcuse

Cheers for now, I'm back to plain cat-sitting!
p+5-3D!


> Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2013 18:00:46 +0100
> From: "Martin (Crypt)" <crysison at googlemail.com>
> To: hacktionlab at lists.aktivix.org
> Subject: Re: [HacktionLab] post-OHM2013 (2)
> Message-ID:
> 	<CADKfjh=L+ua_P-6cg3EFSBVNQBk9gPa-mFH7OXE9aydeGs6fkQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi Patrice
> I'm not sure I wanna get too deeply into exactly what happened, I know
> there was some antagonism on both sides and this issue has been gone over
> many times, on many different forums.  After all has been said I do trust
> that the decisions taken were in the best interests of making a fantastic
> camp, which OHM was, and I don't want to start promoting negativity, where
> what OHM achieved has far outweighed that.
>
> There have been many people inspired, as I was, by what I saw going on
> there and the creative enviroment.  At the end of the day those people who
> took the inititive and set this up have had a massive possitive impact on
> the whole community.
>
> If we don't like some of the decisions made we're all free to get in
> contact and help influence the next one, and EMF is coming up next year,
> which I will be working very hard towards, so if anyone wants to have an
> influence on that, get involved and make it happen.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 1:50 PM, Patrice Riemens <patrice at xs4all.nl> wrote:
>
>> Hi again,
>>
>> Thanks for response!
>>
>> See in text for comments
>>
>>
>> > Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2013 09:35:31 +0100
>> > From: "Martin (Crypt)" <crysison at googlemail.com>
>> > To: hacktionlab at lists.aktivix.org
>>
>> > I was there for the whole of the week helping out with setup and
>> during
>> > the
>> > event, and had a really good time.  I was heavily involved in the set
>> up
>> > of
>> > EMF last year, which was a similar event in england, so I know some of
>> the
>> > challenges in setting up an event like this, and even at barncamp,
>> > although
>> > its a much smaller event, theres still a huge ammount of work that has
>> to
>> > go into it, so I have huge respect for the organisers of OHM.
>> >
>> >
>> > I spoke with Koen Martens, who is one of the lead organisers for OHM
>> and
>> > its clear that the festival would not go ahead without a lot of
>> > sponsorship, so its a difficult position to be put in.  Personally I
>> > would't have accepted that sponsorship, but I can see the reasons for
>> it,
>> > and as I wasn't putting the work in to make it happen, it wasn't my
>> > decision.
>>
>> Two things might be interesting to know (if not known) and without
>> prejudicing Martin's opinion:
>>
>> - Koen is, besides conveneer of the highly succesful 'Revelation'
>> hackersspace in The Hague, also a permanent employee of Fox-IT. (He
>> asserts he is not involved in any 'dirty tricks' related work there).
>>
>> - Fox-IT was also major sponsor of the previous big Dutch hackers event,
>> HAR ('Hacking at Random')  https://har2009.org/  and
>> https://wiki.har2009.org/page/Main_Page.html
>>
>>
>> > As long as they don't have influence over the program and camp in
>> general,
>> > which they didn't, they are easy to ignore .  OHM and the duch hacker
>> > camps
>> > have never been overtly radical, they are more radical in the general
>> > nature of the community, and have always accepted other points of
>> view,
>> > even from those on the other side of the security fence, as long as
>> they
>> > come with an attitude of wanting to engage with the community and
>> learn
>> > from us.
>>
>> (NB see for what I think of this approach further below)
>> The main purpose of Fox-IT's sponsoring and visible presence at OHM2013,
>> as I understand it, was exposure and most probably, recruiting - though
>> not there and then. Both aspects come under severe strain in case of
>> controversies and PR issues. Their reaction to these 'threats' have not
>> been very diplomatic, to put it mildly. And now it is not unlikely that
>> the current OHM organisers will have to 'kiss goodbye' to renewed
>> sposnorship by Fox-IT. Something they're most likely to blame the
>> 'terrorists' (the word was apparently used) with Noisy Square.
>>
>> > The other controversy was with the police presence at OHM.  Originally
>> the
>> > police wanted to set up a village in order to identify themselves and
>> talk
>> > to hackers.  This was eventually turned down, although we know there
>> are
>> > police at OHM, so that shouldn't come as a shock to anyone.  I think
>> the
>> > danger was of them trying to recruit, so them having a village was
>> > probably
>> > a bad idea, and they were asked to come as themselves or not at all,
>> which
>> > i think is inkeeping with the spirit of the event.
>>
>> Some correction here on two points (afaik):
>>
>> - Open police presence has been a feature of 'H' events ever since HIP
>> (http://www.hip97.nl/). Since these bashes are big, publicised events,
>> the
>> police has a statutory right to be there, to patrol the grounds, etc. A
>> right they're eager to uses since they also wish to 'sniff the air' and
>> get clued in on last developments. That in it self has never been a real
>> problem - more like an unavoidable nuisance one has to put with.
>>
>> - With OHM, however, the organisers had the unfortunate thought to
>> 'defuse' any latent antagonism by inviting the police to 'join in the
>> fun'
>> and mingle with the crowd by establishing themselves not as a 'camp in
>> (that is, at the margins of) the camp, but as village. "we are all
>> hackers
>> aren't we'? being the idea. As if that was not the smartest move at the
>> best of times, the whole Prism/Snowden etc situation, even if less
>> inflamed in the Netherlands, made it totally unworkable. It was this
>> ill-advised initiative that triggered Groente's manifesto (refered to by
>> ekes)
>>
>> Aside from that, police was immo (unlike Fox-IT) not at OHM for
>> recruiting. They've sufficient staff by now (& budget cuts in NL too),
>> and
>> nowadays most work is outsourced - to Fox-IT for instance...
>>
>> >
>> > What I found to be totally disgusting was the noisy square village
>> asking
>> > several of the main organisers of the camp not to come to the events
>> at
>> > their area because they weren't welcome due to these controversies.  I
>> > think that showed a total lack of grattitude for putting on the camp
>> and
>> a
>> > total disregard for the spirit of the camp, and how the hacker
>> community
>> > operates.
>>
>> I was not aware of this and have asked N^2 for clarification, but I
>> think
>> it was a bit more complex, and also non trivial threats had been voiced
>> by
>> some ohm orga people (cutting of the electricity - or even running over
>> the teepees with a SUV ...) (rumours, gossip, hearsay deptt rulez ;-)
>>
>> >
>> > On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 7:49 AM, Patrice Riemens <patrice at xs4all.nl>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Hi People,
>> >>
>> >> If any of you were at https://ohm2013.org, I'd be most curious to
>> hear
>> >> about yr experience. I was there only for one day on Friday and
>> enjoyed
>> >> it
>> >> - socially, and for one day. There have been some heavy controversies
>> >> both
>> >> before as during the event regarding the role of ITsecurity companies
>> >> (one
>> >> of which was 'golden' sponsor) and the place of hackers in a
>> situation
>> >> of
>> >> total surveillance & control in general. The outcome is largely
>> unclear.
>> >>
>> >> Cheers to you all,
>> >> patriziio & Diiiinooos!
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>>
>> > Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2013 12:17:11 +0200
>> > From: ekes <ekes at aktivix.org>
>> > Cc: hacktionlab at lists.aktivix.org
>> > Subject: Re: [HacktionLab] post-OHM2013
>>
>>
>> >
>> > For those who don't have a background in all this the original article
>> > that started stirring the pot by Gronte is still a good one:
>> > http://www.puscii.nl/blog/content/whats-wrong-kids-these-days
>> >
>> > I think this might also start to put aside any idea that Dutch Hacker
>> > scene and the camps they organised and were involved in were never
>> > radical. It's actually probably more of a case that the HXX etc. are
>> > just bigger now.
>> >
>> > Finally on the orga not welcome at Noisy Square point. The discussion
>> > was that some people at the Noisy Square voiced the fact that they
>> were
>> > not comfortable having a particular discussion about police and people
>> > working for the police with those people present. As it happens, the
>> > outcome of the discussion was that they were not stopped from taking
>> part.
>> >
>> > Cheers, ekes
>>
>> I think there is some consensus among the less totally un-clued that the
>> time for discussion and dialogue with the security aparatus, wether
>> state
>> or corporate, or the current hybrid of both ("GovCorp anyone?), is
>> really
>> and solidly behind us. 'They' might listen, but will not learn, and
>> surely
>> not alter their ways. They know what they want: absolute power and total
>> control, however illusory. And they consider us, at best their chattel,
>> at
>> worst as their enemy. It's a sad and dangerous world, and naievity is
>> deliterious to survival.
>>
>> Cheers from patrizio & Diiiinooos!
>>
>>
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