[LAF] In response to sexual harassment (formerly entitled 'In responce to feminazism')
VolodyA! V Anarhist
Volodya at WhenGendarmeSleeps.org
Thu Jul 23 11:04:12 UTC 2009
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Joy Wood wrote:
> "feminist fascism" "feminazism"
>
> These labels are not arguments, they are deliberate insults. Women are
> entitled to post on this list without being abused. Sexual harassment
> is indefensible. Any e-list, particularly a self-described anarchist
> list should not tolerate sexual harassment.
This list should not tolerate harassment of any kind. Sarah has crossed that
line with the e-mail rant of hers. Now personally i do not believe in calling
people something that they do not chose to call themselves. I do reserve the
right to apply adjectives to distinguish one sub-group from another, but i will
not personally apply noun labels. I do not hold others to such standard, but
that makes me comfortable.
For example, there are two very different strands of feminism, one is open,
inclusive, and pro-sexuality strand, another is closed, divisive, and generally
opposed to many sexual practices. While i call both of them 'feminism' i do
separate 'pro-sex feminism' from 'anti-sex feminism' (or sometimes i call it
'fundamentalist feminism').
> Since there has been much confusion on this list as between 'sexy' and
> 'sexism,' for those unfamiliar with the term 'sexual harassment' a brief
> description follows:
>
> "Some of the same behavior (bigoted jokes, exclusionary tactics,
> personal insults, sabotage, physical assault) is also used in incidents
> of racial, anti-semitic, and homophobic harassment, for the very same
> purposes: intimidation and humiliation, power and dominance." [page 26]
So do you, or do you not agree that Sarah has posted a sexist post on this list?
The e-mail was composed only of personal attacks with no arguments or anything else.
> "On every level, from the most personal and emotional to the most coldly
> strategic, every form of sexual harassment is about the use and abuse of
> power. As a social practice, sexual harassment is a well developed
> pattern of behaviour, based on gender and power, which men routinely use
> for many different purposes: to obtain sexual stimulation, force sexual
> access and select victims for sexual assault; to meet ego- and
> status-based emotional needs, disempower women, and reassert male
> dominance, and to limit women's access to both public and private
> resources, drive women out of traditionally male jobs, and undermine
> female competitors and opponents. Harassment is a widespread male
> practice not because it works as a romantic courtship ritual, but
> because it works so successfully as an exercise of gender-based power"
> [page 50]
This part of definition is rubbish, because it is loaded. It is like people who
define 'marriage' as 'union of a man and a woman' and then scream that
'homosexual marriage' is somehow 'special case'. Or another example would be
Stalinist USSR after WWII arguing that every state that is not fascistic is
democratic, and thus proclaiming themselves a democracy. These definitions only
work while people are looking for a specific conclusion within their arguments.
> Both quotes from "Back Off! How to Conffront and Stop Sexual Harassment
> and Harassers" By Martha J Langelan (1993)
>
> This is not to single out Steve's email below by any means. There have
> been other examples recently on this list of personal insults aimed at
> women. But it does show that if a well-read anarchist activist with a
> philosophy masters from Kings College London cannot distinguish abuse
> from argument and debate, then the anarchist movement is in sore need of
> feminist analysis.
>
> Joy
Thanks argument from authority and is a form of a logical fallacy. Just because
that ridiculous definition is written in a book, does not mean that people will
agree with it. And no, people will not disagree with it because of gender of the
author but because the definition is loaded.
- Volodya
>> Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 00:39:01 +0000
>> From: steveash_2001 at yahoo.co.uk
>> To: laf at lists.aktivix.org
>> Subject: [LAF] In responce to feminazism
>>
>>
>> 'Do either of you actually realise that women are human in exactly the
> same way you are? Our bodies feel things in exactly the same way yours
> does, and what you would experience as abuse and degradation, we would
> experience in exactly the same way.'
>>
>>
>> Yes women will need self employed male sex workers too. Nothing wrong
> with that.
>>
>> And when have I said I support pimps, any exploiter would be executed
> in any anarchist community I was involved in.
>>
>> Please argue against what I actually saying instead of your opposing
> strawman arguements nauseating feminist fascism.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Tue, 14/7/09, laf-request at lists.aktivix.org
> <laf-request at lists.aktivix.org> wrote:
>>
>> > From: laf-request at lists.aktivix.org <laf-request at lists.aktivix.org>
>> > Subject: LAF Digest, Vol 53, Issue 17
>> > To: laf at lists.aktivix.org
>> > Date: Tuesday, 14 July, 2009, 10:49 PM
>> > Send LAF mailing list submissions to
>> > laf at lists.aktivix.org
>> >
>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> > https://lists.aktivix.org/mailman/listinfo/laf
>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help'
>> > to
>> > laf-request at lists.aktivix.org
>> >
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>> > laf-owner at lists.aktivix.org
>> >
>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
>> > specific
>> > than "Re: Contents of LAF digest..."
>> >
>> >
>> > Today's Topics:
>> >
>> > 1. Re: Disgusted by the misogyny on this
>> > list (Ed McArthur)
>> > 2. LAF Sym ON COMPUTER CULTURE:
>> > Date Time Venue ???? (Ed McArthur)
>> > 3. Re: Disgusted by the misogyny on this
>> > list (Sarah C L)
>> >
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 1
>> > Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 14:10:49 +0000 (GMT)
>> > From: Ed McArthur <antines at yahoo.co.uk>
>> > Subject: Re: [LAF] Disgusted by the misogyny on this list
>> > To: laf at lists.aktivix.org,
>> > Sarah C L <sarah.c.l at hotmail.co.uk>
>> > Message-ID: <945534.29192.qm at web24611.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >
>> > Sarah,
>> > ?
>> > I think you have hit upone something very important
>> > ?
>> > In a future stateless. moneyless society there could still
>> > be mechanisms? of social control such as you say. ?access to
>> > food shelter etc. I t would be interesting to find some
>> > research into the various communal experiments over the past
>> > 200 years
>> > to see how much better they were for woman and children,
>> > not a lot I suspect
>> > ?
>> > I have always argued that anarchism if its to work would
>> > require a fundamental
>> > change in human psychology rather than just over throwing
>> > the state as some think
>> > its supposed to be about abolishing ALL coercive
>> > relationships not just the state and capitalism, clearly
>> > most anarchist men are still no better in their attitudes to
>> > women than any other men
>> > ?
>> > Any man who visits a prostitute or otherwise ?supports the
>> > sex industry as a customer
>> > is re enforcing the coercion of woman and displaying a
>> > misogynistic? attitude of the worst kind
>> > ?
>> > It would be interesting to know why it is that defense of
>> > the sex industry is considered so important when there are
>> > so many other causes, not least woman's rights that need to
>> > be fought for.
>> > ?
>> > Ed
>> > ?
>> > ?
>> > ?
>> > ?
>> > ?
>> > ?
>> >
>> >
>> > ?
>> > Ed MacArthur?? 07981? 900? 563???????????
>> > ?
>> > ?
>> >
>> > www.eventsandissues.bravehost.com
>> > see also
>> > www.freewebs.com/bookevents
>> > Conway Hall Sunday Concerts
>> > www.conwayhallsundayconcerts.org.uk
>> > www.freewebs.com/secularcivilrights
>> > ?
>> > ?
>> > ?
>> > ??
>> > ?
>> > ?
>> >
>> > --- On Tue, 7/14/09, Sarah C L <sarah.c.l at hotmail.co.uk>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > From: Sarah C L <sarah.c.l at hotmail.co.uk>
>> > Subject: [Nestle] Disgusted by the misogyny on this list
>> > To: laf at lists.aktivix.org
>> > Date: Tuesday, July 14, 2009, 6:52 AM
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > #yiv360222339 .hmmessage P
>> > {
>> > margin:0px;padding:0px;}
>> > #yiv360222339 {
>> > font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}
>> >
>> > I?ve been on this list for a while, and contributed a
>> > couple of times, but I?ve been largely put off in the past
>> > by the sexism of some of the posters. Joy, Ed, thank you for
>> > your continued efforts to stand up to this barrage of
>> > woman-hating.
>> >
>> > It?s like I?ve fallen through a time-warp back to the
>> > ?sexual revolution? of the sixties, when they celebrated
>> > rapists and child abusers as ?sexual outlaws? and thought
>> > prostitution would die out because ?sexually liberated?
>> > women would do for free what you had to pay prostitutes to
>> > do.
>> >
>> > So, we have Steve, who thinks that sex is a human right,
>> > but freedom from compulsory sexual activity isn?t. Yes, you
>> > pay lip-service to ?sex equality?, by saying that women will
>> > have access to this ?charitable prostitution?, but really
>> > this is about shawing up male entitlement and male
>> > privilege.
>> >
>> > And we have Volodya, who only wants to hang out with
>> > ?empowered sex workers? (ie already privileged individuals
>> > who have embraced ?sex work? as part of their
>> > ?transgressive? lifestyle choice), and would rather hear
>> > pimps? and pornographers? accounts of the sex industry than
>> > hear from those who have been chewed up and spat out of the
>> > system. Because victims are boring and whiney and not-sexy,
>> > and anyway, victims aren?t people, so it doesn?t matter what
>> > happens to them. And if any one disagrees with you, that
>> > means they hate sex, so you don?t have to listen to them
>> > either!
>> >
>> > Do either of you actually realise that women are human in
>> > exactly the same way you are? Our bodies feel things in
>> > exactly the same way yours does, and what you would
>> > experience as abuse and degradation, we would experience in
>> > exactly the same way.
>> >
>> > You don?t get to pick and choose which hierarchies you
>> > oppose and which you want to keep, bell hooks didn?t call it
>> > ?white supremacist capitalist patriarchy? for no good
>> > reason; all forms of hierarchy are intertwined. You want a
>> > world with out capitalism and the state, but you don?t want
>> > to give up sex hierarchy.
>> >
>> > Presumably, in your putative anarchist community, men would
>> > co-operate horizontally to oppress women and ensure they
>> > continued to sexually service men, either through direct
>> > violence, or through control of economic recourses (food,
>> > shelter). It sounds more like the Swat valley than anything
>> > any woman would recognise as utopia.
>> >
>> > Sarah
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Beyond Hotmail ? see what else you can do with Windows
>> > Live. Find out more.
>> > -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > LAF mailing list
>> > LAF at lists.aktivix.org
>> > https://lists.aktivix.org/mailman/listinfo/laf
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -------------- next part --------------
>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> > URL:
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>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 2
>> > Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 15:20:12 +0000 (GMT)
>> > From: Ed McArthur <antines at yahoo.co.uk>
>> > Subject: [LAF] LAF Sym ON COMPUTER CULTURE: Date Time
>> > Venue ????
>> > To: London Anarchist Forum <laf at lists.aktivix.org>
>> > Cc: steve ash <steveash_2001 at yahoo.co.uk>
>> > Message-ID: <250001.38757.qm at web24603.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>> >
>> > When the date and time are known could you please let me
>> > know togeather with the venue
>> > ?
>> > I have forgotten what was said about that, so Just send me
>> > details in the precise form you want posted on site
>> > ?
>> > thanks
>> > ?
>> > Ed
>> >
>> >
>> > Ed McArthur?? 07981? 900? 563???????????
>> > ?
>> > ?
>> >
>> > www.eventsandissues.bravehost.com
>> > see also
>> > www.freewebs.com/bookevents
>> > Conway Hall Sunday Concerts
>> > www.conwayhallsundayconcerts.org.uk
>> > www.freewebs.com/secularcivilrights
>> > ?
>> > ?
>> > ?
>> > ??
>> > ?
>> > ?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -------------- next part --------------
>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> > URL:
> <https://lists.aktivix.org/pipermail/laf/attachments/20090714/2832d221/attachment-0001.htm>
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 3
>> > Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 22:49:30 +0100
>> > From: Sarah C L <sarah.c.l at hotmail.co.uk>
>> > Subject: Re: [LAF] Disgusted by the misogyny on this list
>> > To: <laf at lists.aktivix.org>
>> > Message-ID: <BAY102-W3296572D03D58A159C8E36F4230 at phx.gbl>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>> >
>> >
>> > Re. alternative communities, if you haven't read it
>> > already, I can recommend Murry Bookchin's The Ecology of
>> > Freedom. In it he examines accounts of Native American
>> > cultures just before they were finally destroyed by European
>> > invaders, and the early Christian communities that
>> > experimented with different ways of living, to give accounts
>> > of possible ways for human beings to interact. I recommend
>> > it even though at one point he quotes de Sade (yuck, yuck,
>> > yuck!) in relation to women's sexual liberation.
>> >
>> > Sarah
>> >
>> > Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 14:10:49 +0000
>> > From: antines at yahoo.co.uk
>> > Subject: Re: [LAF] Disgusted by the misogyny on this list
>> > To: laf at lists.aktivix.org;
>> > sarah.c.l at hotmail.co.uk
>> >
>> > Sarah,
>> >
>> > I think you have hit upone something very important
>> >
>> > In a future stateless. moneyless society there could still
>> > be mechanisms of social control such as you say.
>> > access to food shelter etc. I t would be interesting to find
>> > some research into the various communal experiments over the
>> > past 200 years
>> > to see how much better they were for woman and children,
>> > not a lot I suspect
>> >
>> > I have always argued that anarchism if its to work would
>> > require a fundamental
>> > change in human psychology rather than just over throwing
>> > the state as some think
>> > its supposed to be about abolishing ALL coercive
>> > relationships not just the state and capitalism, clearly
>> > most anarchist men are still no better in their attitudes to
>> > women than any other men
>> >
>> > Any man who visits a prostitute or otherwise supports
>> > the sex industry as a customer
>> > is re enforcing the coercion of woman and displaying a
>> > misogynistic attitude of the worst kind
>> >
>> > It would be interesting to know why it is that defense of
>> > the sex industry is considered so important when there are
>> > so many other causes, not least woman's rights that need to
>> > be fought for.
>> >
>> > Ed
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Ed MacArthur 07981 900
>> > 563
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > www.eventsandissues.bravehost.com
>> > see also
>> > www.freewebs.com/bookevents
>> > Conway Hall Sunday Concerts
>> > www.conwayhallsundayconcerts.org.uk
>> > www.freewebs.com/secularcivilrights
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --- On Tue, 7/14/09, Sarah C L <sarah.c.l at hotmail.co.uk>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > From: Sarah C L <sarah.c.l at hotmail.co.uk>
>> > Subject: [Nestle] Disgusted by the misogyny on this list
>> > To: laf at lists.aktivix.org
>> > Date: Tuesday, July 14, 2009, 6:52 AM
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I?ve been on this list for a while, and contributed a
>> > couple of times, but I?ve been largely put off in the past
>> > by the sexism of some of the posters. Joy, Ed, thank you for
>> > your continued efforts to stand up to this barrage of
>> > woman-hating.
>> >
>> > It?s like I?ve fallen through a time-warp back to the
>> > ?sexual revolution? of the sixties, when they celebrated
>> > rapists and child abusers as ?sexual outlaws? and thought
>> > prostitution would die out because ?sexually liberated?
>> > women would do for free what you had to pay prostitutes to
>> > do.
>> >
>> > So, we have Steve, who thinks that sex is a human right,
>> > but freedom from compulsory sexual activity isn?t. Yes, you
>> > pay lip-service to ?sex equality?, by saying that women will
>> > have access to this ?charitable prostitution?, but really
>> > this is about shawing up male entitlement and male
>> > privilege.
>> >
>> > And we have Volodya, who only wants to hang out with
>> > ?empowered sex
>> > workers? (ie already privileged individuals who have
>> > embraced ?sex work? as part of their ?transgressive?
>> > lifestyle choice), and would rather hear pimps? and
>> > pornographers? accounts of the sex industry than hear from
>> > those who have been chewed up and spat out of the system.
>> > Because victims are boring and whiney and not-sexy, and
>> > anyway, victims aren?t people, so it doesn?t matter what
>> > happens to them. And if any one disagrees with you, that
>> > means they hate sex, so you don?t have to listen to them
>> > either!
>> >
>> > Do either of you actually realise that women are human in
>> > exactly the same way you are? Our bodies feel things in
>> > exactly the same way yours does, and what you would
>> > experience as abuse and degradation, we would experience in
>> > exactly the same way.
>> >
>> > You don?t get to pick and choose which hierarchies you
>> > oppose and which you want to keep, bell hooks didn?t call it
>> > ?white supremacist capitalist patriarchy?
>> > for no good reason; all forms of hierarchy are
>> > intertwined. You want a world with out capitalism and the
>> > state, but you don?t want to give up sex hierarchy.
>> >
>> > Presumably, in your putative anarchist community, men would
>> > co-operate horizontally to oppress women and ensure they
>> > continued to sexually service men, either through direct
>> > violence, or through control of economic recourses (food,
>> > shelter). It sounds more like the Swat valley than anything
>> > any woman would recognise as utopia.
>> >
>> > Sarah
- --
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