[LAF] In response to sexual harassment (formerly entitled 'In responce to feminazism')
Joy Wood
joy_helbin at hotmail.com
Mon Jul 27 13:25:49 UTC 2009
My criticisms stand. Steve, I never thought you were directing your remarks at any individual but you made it plain that you were addressing this thread and your insults are gender-specific. As I say, "feminist fascism" and "feminazism" are not arguments they are deliberate insults. Women are entitled to post on this e-list without being abused. Sexual harassment is indefensible. I direct you to my email below once again and the brief description contained therein as to what sexual harassment means for those who remain confused or uncertain.
Joy
> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 23:24:44 +0000
> From: steveash_2001 at yahoo.co.uk
> Subject: RE: [LAF] In response to sexual harassment (formerly entitled 'In responce to feminazism')
> To: joy_helbin at hotmail.com; laf at lists.aktivix.org
>
>
> Those remarks were not directed at any particular individual, but are well aimed at any authoritarian ideology that 'tells people how to live'. Doctrinal bullying feminism (of the type preached in this thread) has no place within anarchism. Free women and men in all industries will continue to do as they like, harming and degrading no one, regardless of the wrong headed and simple false political consciousness imposed on them by these groups.
>
> --- On Tue, 21/7/09, Joy Wood <joy_helbin at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > From: Joy Wood <joy_helbin at hotmail.com>
> > Subject: RE: [LAF] In response to sexual harassment (formerly entitled 'In responce to feminazism')
> > To: "steve ash" <steveash_2001 at yahoo.co.uk>, "LAF EMAIL LIST" <laf at lists.aktivix.org>
> > Date: Tuesday, 21 July, 2009, 11:07 PM
> >
> >
> >
> > #yiv456460320 .hmmessage P
> > {
> > margin:0px;padding:0px;}
> > #yiv456460320 {
> > font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}
> >
> >
> >
> > "feminist fascism" "feminazism"
> >
> > These labels are not arguments, they are deliberate
> > insults. Women are entitled to post on this list
> > without being abused. Sexual harassment is
> > indefensible. Any e-list, particularly a
> > self-described anarchist list should not tolerate sexual
> > harassment.
> >
> > Since there has been much confusion on this list as between
> > 'sexy' and 'sexism,' for those unfamiliar
> > with the term 'sexual harassment' a brief
> > description follows:
> >
> > "Some of the same behavior (bigoted jokes,
> > exclusionary tactics, personal insults, sabotage, physical
> > assault) is also used in incidents of racial, anti-semitic,
> > and homophobic harassment, for the very same purposes:
> > intimidation and humiliation, power and dominance."
> > [page 26]
> >
> > "On every level, from the most personal and emotional
> > to the most coldly strategic, every form of sexual
> > harassment is about the use and abuse of power. As a
> > social practice, sexual harassment is a well developed
> > pattern of behaviour, based on gender and power, which men
> > routinely use for many different purposes: to obtain sexual
> > stimulation, force sexual access and select victims for
> > sexual assault; to meet ego- and status-based emotional
> > needs, disempower women, and reassert male dominance, and to
> > limit women's access to both public and private
> > resources, drive women out of traditionally male jobs, and
> > undermine female competitors and opponents. Harassment
> > is a widespread male practice not because it works as a
> > romantic courtship ritual, but because it works so
> > successfully as an exercise of gender-based power"
> > [page 50]
> >
> > Both quotes from "Back Off! How to Conffront and
> > Stop Sexual Harassment and Harassers" By Martha J
> > Langelan (1993)
> >
> > This is not to single out Steve's email below by any
> > means. There have been other examples recently on this
> > list of personal insults aimed at women. But it does
> > show that if a well-read anarchist activist with a
> > philosophy masters from Kings College London cannot
> > distinguish abuse from argument and debate, then the
> > anarchist movement is in sore need of feminist analysis.
> >
> > Joy
> >
> > > Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 00:39:01 +0000
> > > From: steveash_2001 at yahoo.co.uk
> > > To: laf at lists.aktivix.org
> > > Subject: [LAF] In responce to feminazism
> > >
> > >
> > > 'Do either of you actually realise that women are
> > human in exactly the same way you are? Our bodies feel
> > things in exactly the same way yours does, and what you
> > would experience as abuse and degradation, we would
> > experience in exactly the same way.'
> > >
> > >
> > > Yes women will need self employed male sex workers
> > too. Nothing wrong with that.
> > >
> > > And when have I said I support pimps, any exploiter
> > would be executed in any anarchist community I was involved
> > in.
> > >
> > > Please argue against what I actually saying instead of
> > your opposing strawman arguements nauseating feminist
> > fascism.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Tue, 14/7/09, laf-request at lists.aktivix.org
> > <laf-request at lists.aktivix.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > > From: laf-request at lists.aktivix.org
> > <laf-request at lists.aktivix.org>
> > > > Subject: LAF Digest, Vol 53, Issue 17
> > > > To: laf at lists.aktivix.org
> > > > Date: Tuesday, 14 July, 2009, 10:49 PM
> > > > Send LAF mailing list submissions to
> > > > laf at lists.aktivix.org
> > > >
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> > Web, visit
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> > > > or, via email, send a message with subject or
> > body 'help'
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> > > >
> > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so
> > it is more
> > > > specific
> > > > than "Re: Contents of LAF digest..."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Today's Topics:
> > > >
> > > > 1. Re: Disgusted by the
> > misogyny on this
> > > > list (Ed McArthur)
> > > > 2. LAF Sym ON COMPUTER
> > CULTURE:
> > > > Date Time Venue ???? (Ed McArthur)
> > > > 3. Re: Disgusted by the
> > misogyny on this
> > > > list (Sarah C L)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Message: 1
> > > > Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 14:10:49 +0000 (GMT)
> > > > From: Ed McArthur <antines at yahoo.co.uk>
> > > > Subject: Re: [LAF] Disgusted by the misogyny on
> > this list
> > > > To: laf at lists.aktivix.org,
> > > > Sarah C L <sarah.c.l at hotmail.co.uk>
> > > > Message-ID:
> > <945534.29192.qm at web24611.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain;
> > charset="utf-8"
> > > >
> > > > Sarah,
> > > > ?
> > > > I think you have hit upone something very
> > important
> > > > ?
> > > > In a future stateless. moneyless society there
> > could still
> > > > be mechanisms? of social control such as you say.
> > ?access to
> > > > food shelter etc. I t would be interesting to
> > find some
> > > > research into the various communal experiments
> > over the past
> > > > 200 years
> > > > to see how much better they were for woman and
> > children,
> > > > not a lot I suspect
> > > > ?
> > > > I have always argued that anarchism if its to
> > work would
> > > > require a fundamental
> > > > change in human psychology rather than just over
> > throwing
> > > > the state as some think
> > > > its supposed to be about abolishing ALL coercive
> > > > relationships not just the state and capitalism,
> > clearly
> > > > most anarchist men are still no better in their
> > attitudes to
> > > > women than any other men
> > > > ?
> > > > Any man who visits a prostitute or otherwise
> > ?supports the
> > > > sex industry as a customer
> > > > is re enforcing the coercion of woman and
> > displaying a
> > > > misogynistic? attitude of the worst kind
> > > > ?
> > > > It would be interesting to know why it is that
> > defense of
> > > > the sex industry is considered so important when
> > there are
> > > > so many other causes, not least woman's
> > rights that need to
> > > > be fought for.
> > > > ?
> > > > Ed
> > > > ?
> > > > ?
> > > > ?
> > > > ?
> > > > ?
> > > > ?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ?
> > > > Ed MacArthur?? 07981? 900? 563???????????
> > > > ?
> > > > ?
> > > >
> > > > www.eventsandissues.bravehost.com
> > > > see also
> > > > www.freewebs.com/bookevents
> > > > Conway Hall Sunday Concerts
> > > > www.conwayhallsundayconcerts.org.uk
> > > > www.freewebs.com/secularcivilrights
> > > > ?
> > > > ?
> > > > ?
> > > > ??
> > > > ?
> > > > ?
> > > >
> > > > --- On Tue, 7/14/09, Sarah C L
> > <sarah.c.l at hotmail.co.uk>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: Sarah C L <sarah.c.l at hotmail.co.uk>
> > > > Subject: [Nestle] Disgusted by the misogyny on
> > this list
> > > > To: laf at lists.aktivix.org
> > > > Date: Tuesday, July 14, 2009, 6:52 AM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > #yiv360222339 .hmmessage P
> > > > {
> > > > margin:0px;padding:0px;}
> > > > #yiv360222339 {
> > > > font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}
> > > >
> > > > I?ve been on this list for a while, and
> > contributed a
> > > > couple of times, but I?ve been largely put off in
> > the past
> > > > by the sexism of some of the posters. Joy, Ed,
> > thank you for
> > > > your continued efforts to stand up to this
> > barrage of
> > > > woman-hating.
> > > >
> > > > It?s like I?ve fallen through a time-warp back to
> > the
> > > > ?sexual revolution? of the sixties, when they
> > celebrated
> > > > rapists and child abusers as ?sexual outlaws? and
> > thought
> > > > prostitution would die out because ?sexually
> > liberated?
> > > > women would do for free what you had to pay
> > prostitutes to
> > > > do.
> > > >
> > > > So, we have Steve, who thinks that sex is a human
> > right,
> > > > but freedom from compulsory sexual activity
> > isn?t. Yes, you
> > > > pay lip-service to ?sex equality?, by saying that
> > women will
> > > > have access to this ?charitable prostitution?,
> > but really
> > > > this is about shawing up male entitlement and
> > male
> > > > privilege.
> > > >
> > > > And we have Volodya, who only wants to hang out
> > with
> > > > ?empowered sex workers? (ie already privileged
> > individuals
> > > > who have embraced ?sex work? as part of their
> > > > ?transgressive? lifestyle choice), and would
> > rather hear
> > > > pimps? and pornographers? accounts of the sex
> > industry than
> > > > hear from those who have been chewed up and spat
> > out of the
> > > > system. Because victims are boring and whiney and
> > not-sexy,
> > > > and anyway, victims aren?t people, so it doesn?t
> > matter what
> > > > happens to them. And if any one disagrees with
> > you, that
> > > > means they hate sex, so you don?t have to listen
> > to them
> > > > either!
> > > >
> > > > Do either of you actually realise that women are
> > human in
> > > > exactly the same way you are? Our bodies feel
> > things in
> > > > exactly the same way yours does, and what you
> > would
> > > > experience as abuse and degradation, we would
> > experience in
> > > > exactly the same way.
> > > >
> > > > You don?t get to pick and choose which
> > hierarchies you
> > > > oppose and which you want to keep, bell hooks
> > didn?t call it
> > > > ?white supremacist capitalist patriarchy? for no
> > good
> > > > reason; all forms of hierarchy are intertwined.
> > You want a
> > > > world with out capitalism and the state, but you
> > don?t want
> > > > to give up sex hierarchy.
> > > >
> > > > Presumably, in your putative anarchist community,
> > men would
> > > > co-operate horizontally to oppress women and
> > ensure they
> > > > continued to sexually service men, either through
> > direct
> > > > violence, or through control of economic
> > recourses (food,
> > > > shelter). It sounds more like the Swat valley
> > than anything
> > > > any woman would recognise as utopia.
> > > >
> > > > Sarah
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Beyond Hotmail ? see what else you can do with
> > Windows
> > > > Live. Find out more.
> > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > LAF mailing list
> > > > LAF at lists.aktivix.org
> > > > https://lists.aktivix.org/mailman/listinfo/laf
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -------------- next part --------------
> > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > > > URL:
> > <https://lists.aktivix.org/pipermail/laf/attachments/20090714/3c9ffbb7/attachment-0001.htm>
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Message: 2
> > > > Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 15:20:12 +0000 (GMT)
> > > > From: Ed McArthur <antines at yahoo.co.uk>
> > > > Subject: [LAF] LAF Sym ON COMPUTER CULTURE:
> > Date Time
> > > > Venue ????
> > > > To: London Anarchist Forum
> > <laf at lists.aktivix.org>
> > > > Cc: steve ash <steveash_2001 at yahoo.co.uk>
> > > > Message-ID:
> > <250001.38757.qm at web24603.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain;
> > charset="iso-8859-1"
> > > >
> > > > When the date and time are known could you please
> > let me
> > > > know togeather with the venue
> > > > ?
> > > > I have forgotten what was said about that, so
> > Just send me
> > > > details in the precise form you want posted on
> > site
> > > > ?
> > > > thanks
> > > > ?
> > > > Ed
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ed McArthur?? 07981? 900? 563???????????
> > > > ?
> > > > ?
> > > >
> > > > www.eventsandissues.bravehost.com
> > > > see also
> > > > www.freewebs.com/bookevents
> > > > Conway Hall Sunday Concerts
> > > > www.conwayhallsundayconcerts.org.uk
> > > > www.freewebs.com/secularcivilrights
> > > > ?
> > > > ?
> > > > ?
> > > > ??
> > > > ?
> > > > ?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -------------- next part --------------
> > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > > > URL:
> > <https://lists.aktivix.org/pipermail/laf/attachments/20090714/2832d221/attachment-0001.htm>
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Message: 3
> > > > Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 22:49:30 +0100
> > > > From: Sarah C L <sarah.c.l at hotmail.co.uk>
> > > > Subject: Re: [LAF] Disgusted by the misogyny on
> > this list
> > > > To: <laf at lists.aktivix.org>
> > > > Message-ID:
> > <BAY102-W3296572D03D58A159C8E36F4230 at phx.gbl>
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain;
> > charset="windows-1252"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Re. alternative communities, if you haven't
> > read it
> > > > already, I can recommend Murry Bookchin's The
> > Ecology of
> > > > Freedom. In it he examines accounts of Native
> > American
> > > > cultures just before they were finally destroyed
> > by European
> > > > invaders, and the early Christian communities
> > that
> > > > experimented with different ways of living, to
> > give accounts
> > > > of possible ways for human beings to interact. I
> > recommend
> > > > it even though at one point he quotes de Sade
> > (yuck, yuck,
> > > > yuck!) in relation to women's sexual
> > liberation.
> > > >
> > > > Sarah
> > > >
> > > > Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 14:10:49 +0000
> > > > From: antines at yahoo.co.uk
> > > > Subject: Re: [LAF] Disgusted by the misogyny on
> > this list
> > > > To: laf at lists.aktivix.org;
> > > > sarah.c.l at hotmail.co.uk
> > > >
> > > > Sarah,
> > > >
> > > > I think you have hit upone something very
> > important
> > > >
> > > > In a future stateless. moneyless society there
> > could still
> > > > be mechanisms of social control such as you
> > say.
> > > > access to food shelter etc. I t would be
> > interesting to find
> > > > some research into the various communal
> > experiments over the
> > > > past 200 years
> > > > to see how much better they were for woman and
> > children,
> > > > not a lot I suspect
> > > >
> > > > I have always argued that anarchism if its to
> > work would
> > > > require a fundamental
> > > > change in human psychology rather than just over
> > throwing
> > > > the state as some think
> > > > its supposed to be about abolishing ALL coercive
> > > > relationships not just the state and capitalism,
> > clearly
> > > > most anarchist men are still no better in their
> > attitudes to
> > > > women than any other men
> > > >
> > > > Any man who visits a prostitute or
> > otherwise supports
> > > > the sex industry as a customer
> > > > is re enforcing the coercion of woman and
> > displaying a
> > > > misogynistic attitude of the worst kind
> > > >
> > > > It would be interesting to know why it is that
> > defense of
> > > > the sex industry is considered so important when
> > there are
> > > > so many other causes, not least woman's
> > rights that need to
> > > > be fought for.
> > > >
> > > > Ed
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ed MacArthur 07981
> > 900
> > > > 563
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > www.eventsandissues.bravehost.com
> > > > see also
> > > > www.freewebs.com/bookevents
> > > > Conway Hall Sunday Concerts
> > > > www.conwayhallsundayconcerts.org.uk
> > > > www.freewebs.com/secularcivilrights
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- On Tue, 7/14/09, Sarah C L
> > <sarah.c.l at hotmail.co.uk>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: Sarah C L <sarah.c.l at hotmail.co.uk>
> > > > Subject: [Nestle] Disgusted by the misogyny on
> > this list
> > > > To: laf at lists.aktivix.org
> > > > Date: Tuesday, July 14, 2009, 6:52 AM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I?ve been on this list for a while, and
> > contributed a
> > > > couple of times, but I?ve been largely put off in
> > the past
> > > > by the sexism of some of the posters. Joy, Ed,
> > thank you for
> > > > your continued efforts to stand up to this
> > barrage of
> > > > woman-hating.
> > > >
> > > > It?s like I?ve fallen through a time-warp back to
> > the
> > > > ?sexual revolution? of the sixties, when they
> > celebrated
> > > > rapists and child abusers as ?sexual outlaws? and
> > thought
> > > > prostitution would die out because ?sexually
> > liberated?
> > > > women would do for free what you had to pay
> > prostitutes to
> > > > do.
> > > >
> > > > So, we have Steve, who thinks that sex is a human
> > right,
> > > > but freedom from compulsory sexual activity
> > isn?t. Yes, you
> > > > pay lip-service to ?sex equality?, by saying that
> > women will
> > > > have access to this ?charitable prostitution?,
> > but really
> > > > this is about shawing up male entitlement and
> > male
> > > > privilege.
> > > >
> > > > And we have Volodya, who only wants to hang out
> > with
> > > > ?empowered sex
> > > > workers? (ie already privileged individuals who
> > have
> > > > embraced ?sex work? as part of their
> > ?transgressive?
> > > > lifestyle choice), and would rather hear pimps?
> > and
> > > > pornographers? accounts of the sex industry than
> > hear from
> > > > those who have been chewed up and spat out of the
> > system.
> > > > Because victims are boring and whiney and
> > not-sexy, and
> > > > anyway, victims aren?t people, so it doesn?t
> > matter what
> > > > happens to them. And if any one disagrees with
> > you, that
> > > > means they hate sex, so you don?t have to listen
> > to them
> > > > either!
> > > >
> > > > Do either of you actually realise that women are
> > human in
> > > > exactly the same way you are? Our bodies feel
> > things in
> > > > exactly the same way yours does, and what you
> > would
> > > > experience as abuse and degradation, we would
> > experience in
> > > > exactly the same way.
> > > >
> > > > You don?t get to pick and choose which
> > hierarchies you
> > > > oppose and which you want to keep, bell hooks
> > didn?t call it
> > > > ?white supremacist capitalist patriarchy?
> > > > for no good reason; all forms of hierarchy are
> > > > intertwined. You want a world with out capitalism
> > and the
> > > > state, but you don?t want to give up sex
> > hierarchy.
> > > >
> > > > Presumably, in your putative anarchist community,
> > men would
> > > > co-operate horizontally to oppress women and
> > ensure they
> > > > continued to sexually service men, either through
> > direct
> > > > violence, or through control of economic
> > recourses (food,
> > > > shelter). It sounds more like the Swat valley
> > than anything
> > > > any woman would recognise as utopia.
> > > >
> > > > Sarah
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Beyond Hotmail ? see what else you can do with
> > Windows
> > > > Live. Find out more.
> > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > LAF mailing list
> > > > LAF at lists.aktivix.org
> > > > https://lists.aktivix.org/mailman/listinfo/laf
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > > >
> > > > MSN straight to your mobile - news,
> > entertainment, videos
> > > > and more.
> > > >
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> > > > -------------- next part --------------
> > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > > > URL:
> > <https://lists.aktivix.org/pipermail/laf/attachments/20090714/14d73bf1/attachment.htm>
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > LAF mailing list
> > > > LAF at lists.aktivix.org
> > > > https://lists.aktivix.org/mailman/listinfo/laf
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > End of LAF Digest, Vol 53, Issue 17
> > > > ***********************************
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > LAF mailing list
> > > LAF at lists.aktivix.org
> > > https://lists.aktivix.org/mailman/listinfo/laf
> >
> > With Windows Live, you can organise, edit, and
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