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<DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG>Steve,</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><FONT size=3><STRONG>I too assume that</STRONG></FONT> in a genuine anarchist society there would be no need for prison but non of us will live to see that</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>I never <SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN>realised</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> you could be so ruthless, but I did say in an earlier post that some anarchists have advocated execution as an alternative to prison</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>My "<SPAN><SPAN>soft</SPAN>"</SPAN> island (or <SPAN>soft</SPAN> hotel ) solution was meant as a</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4> practical alternative to the present day punishment brigade and the No More Prison camp but no alternatives for the present day camp , and</FONT><FONT size=4>I think I will stand by it as a <U>libertarian</U> solution to the practical problem of dangerous and anti social behavior</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>On the one hand I recognize that this is cause by the present society on the other I recognize the need for a<U> practical</U> rather than Utopian solution to real problems <SPAN>faced</SPAN> by real people</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Anarchist being middle class don't live in the real world</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>When I stopped being an anarcho-capitalist and became a limited state Free Market it was because I had concluded that a society could be anarcho-capitalist but not libertarian in fact very un libertarian </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>I later became a socialist- anarchist but it seems the same applies to them so I now myself as a libertarian-socialist with a philosophical</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>commitment to an anarchist society in the long long term</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG>I see the sex industry as being both exploitative and degrading</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>As for the matter of "choice"</FONT> <FONT size=4></FONT> <FONT size=4>well that was the justification for imposing market solutions on the public sector which has been the cause of so much hard ship</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>In Societies like Thailand where there is more porn and prostitution available the attitude to women is much more negative, the existence of same anywhere is a reflection of the ideas of woman having the primary role of pleasing men sexually, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>This is why men go off to places like Thailand as sex tourists</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>often because they want under age girls, also they want woman who they see as more submissive, "Choice" here is meaningless so I am all for targeting men who go abroad as sexual tourists and all for targeting the employers and customers of the sex industry (We are talking about a muli billion $ world wide business here , it depends for its continuation on current male attitudes to woman remember that the next time yiou see some smart suited type defending porn on grounds of free speech</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>(Although I regret flirting with anarcho-capitalism it did teach me a lot)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=4>I still </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=4>don't understand why defending porn and prostitution is such a <U>priority</U></FONT></STRONG><U> </U><FONT size=4><U>for </U><STRONG><U>anarchist</U> men</STRONG></FONT><STRONG> </STRONG><FONT size=4><STRONG>except as a reflection of their negative attitude to Women and I accuse anarchist men of not being willing to make the effort to throw off </STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><STRONG>tthe conditioning that promotes theses attitudes</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>the negative attitudes to Gays and ethnic minorities have </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>largely </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>but not completely</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>been overcome</FONT><FONT size=4> but no progress appears to have been made with regard to attitudes to </FONT><FONT size=4> women, if anything it has become worst</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4> beacause</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Whereas before men were openly misogynistic and defended the idea that woman should be treated as second classs citizens</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>which made it easy to argue against such rediculous attitudes</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>now they use the language of rights and freedom to justify the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>same attitude,</FONT><FONT size=4>they even try to claim it enhances the womans choices</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Well I dont buy into it however you want to dress it up</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT size=4>Ed</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT size=4>============================================</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Ed, I suspect your island prison solution the islands would have to be bigger than the mainland because most people would be there.<BR><BR>But seriously, where do you think these offenders come from, of course they are a <SPAN class=yshortcuts id=lw_1247744092_0>product of society</SPAN> and would not exist in an anarchist society, IMO in any transitory state they would simply not be allowed to survive, either through their execution or because the anti-social would not be part of any society and therefore have any food or shelter provisions. I think you're being soft on them by giving them a nice cozy island to live on. I agree there's a problem with 'liberal anarchism' and '<SPAN>anarcho</SPAN>-pacifism' but it seems to me that <SPAN><SPAN>ur</SPAN></SPAN> also still partly an example of it. Any real anarchist society would have to be a little more ruthless than that to survive.<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>I also note you slipped from exploited to degraded in this post. The issue of explotion is one of coersion or abuse not 'degradation'. Degradation is entirely subjective and often reveals a sex negative attitude (for instance that objectification of a person is in some way a bad thing, when all genders do it to all other genders as often as they subjectify them, this being a part of human nature), and this smacks of somekind of unrealistic idealisation of humanity. Some people even enjoy being 'degraded' and if they do and chose it freely they are not experiencing degradation in any real sense. The only person who can judge whether they are degraded or not is the person themselves, so we return to free choice. <BR><BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=widget-content align=left>Ed McArthur 07981 900 563 <A href="http://www.babymilkaction.org/resources/boycott/nestlefree.html" target=_blank rel=nofollow><IMG height=157 alt="Nestlé-Free small" src="http://www.babymilkaction.org/flash/nestlefreezone.gif" width=136 border=0></A></DIV>
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