<DIV>Thanks Cuthbert. I'll see what else comes. </DIV>
<DIV>Ian<BR><BR><B><I>noone noone <machinevman@hotmail.com></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">>"By all means disagree with 'SWP politics'. That is your right. So long as <BR>>you understand what it is that you disagree with. I'm not at all convinced <BR>>that you do understand what it is that you disagree with. Why not tell me?"<BR><BR>I have said many time why i disagree with the "SWP politics" (your words not <BR>mine) but if you would like me to repeat then i shall:<BR>I dont like-<BR>-block voting<BR>-the way that the SWP dominate the agenda of the STWC<BR>-the way the SWP use front organisations to pretend they somthing other than <BR>the SWP<BR>-the way that you stick to the russian revolution dogma without having any <BR>practicle solutions<BR>-the manipulation of public protests and public meetings, turning them into <BR>SWP recruitment stunts<BR>-the aggressive way that you (the SWP) try to recruit people who often know <BR>little about your
organisation<BR>-the way that you hide information about your own organisation<BR>-the hijacking of previously independent organisations<BR>-the obbsesion with students<BR><BR>however these personal dislikes of mine are also relevent to other groups <BR>and of course the underlying issue is that the SWP has a falling membership <BR>and traditional meetings just dont appeal to large numbers of people. Stop <BR>the war coalition monthly planning meetings use to attract huge numbers of <BR>people now there has been examples where there are only 2 non-swpers <BR>present.<BR><BR>I find it ironic that ian says<BR>>"Maybe surprisingly (speaking as an SWP member) I agree with much or most <BR>>of where this thread seems to be heading."<BR><BR>and yet in the StWC as part of the SWP you have voted against any resolution <BR>that suggests somthing other than doing either a public meeting or a march <BR>from a to b. Of course you should feel free to not do somthing that falls <BR>outside
your ideological dogma but theres no need to spoit it for the rest <BR>of us.<BR><BR><BR>Against this back=drop of falling attendances at demos and meetings i have <BR>argued time and time again that unless we do somthing a little bit different <BR>and try to apeal to those outside the "educated" and student cliques "the <BR>left" will fall into terminal decline (if it isnt already). I feel that by <BR>far the biggest factor for the recent fall in attendences is that there has <BR>been too much talk and too little action (that is action that has a real <BR>effect).<BR><BR>Of course the SWP arent to blame for all the problems in the activist scene <BR>but i have come to the reasoned conclusion that unfortunatly they are part <BR>of the problem and not the solution.<BR><BR>This should not be taken personally of course...<BR><BR><BR>for now<BR>cuthbert<BR><BR>>From: IAN WALLACE <IAN.WALLACE15@BTOPENWORLD.COM><BR>>To: robin&aro <ROBIN_AMPARO@TISCALI.CO.UK>,
<BR>>project-fallujah@lists.aktivix.org<BR>>Subject: Re: [Project-fallujah] Re: Your politics are boring as fuck?<BR>>Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 00:20:06 +0000 (GMT)<BR>><BR>>Maybe surprisingly (speaking as an SWP member) I agree with much or most of <BR>>where this thread seems to be heading.<BR>> 'Politics' for me starts as soon as I come out of my back gate, on my <BR>>bike, to cycle somewhere, or out of my front gate to catch a bus. (I used <BR>>to do a lot of walking too, but now I have a big knee problem.). 'The <BR>>politics of getting to town in the rush hour' are a fascinating subject and <BR>>it IS 'politics'. Why don't many, many more people use the bus or tram or <BR>>train to get to town and back? They probably used to (when we had the cheap <BR>>fares). But now we have more and more dual carriageways. Instead. With more <BR>>and more cars pumping out greenhouse and otherwise noxious gases.<BR>>If all the money which has been
spent on attacking Iraq had been spent <BR>>instead on improving and encouraging people to use public transport then <BR>>(a) 100,000 Iraqi people would still be alive (b) our air would be that bit <BR>>cleaner and climate change that bit further away (c) people would have an <BR>>enhanced sense that 'change for the better' is possible and so might be <BR>>looking around themselves much more readily for the next 'change for the <BR>>better'.<BR>>'Dare to Dream'. 'Demand the Impossible'. Are two phrases which spring to <BR>>mind. (Two non-boring phrases, that is.)<BR>>I have worked as a Child Care Assistant in a special school for the last 25 <BR>>years. (Did I hear you say 'B O R I N G'?)<BR>>The kids don't seem to think its boring. I don't have my own class, but I <BR>>do have my own dinner table. We have now done about 15 dinner table <BR>>'Derbyshire Wayfarer' days out. (A Derbyshire Wayfarer is a ticket anybody <BR>>can buy at the rail
or bus station. £7-50 lets you travel on all buses and <BR>>trains all over Derbyshire, and into Staffordshire and Cheshire, all day.) <BR>>Hardly a week goes by without them asking when can we do another. (We <BR>>varied it by then having a day out to London.) (By train, then tubes and <BR>>buses.)<BR>>After we've done one of these trips they now know what's coming next. I ask <BR>>them if they would like to write about it. Ritual protests follow. Then <BR>>they write about it. They have produced the biggest and best pieces of <BR>>writing ever seen in our school. They even ask questions like 'How do you <BR>>spell Macclesfield?' Because, once they've got started they really want to <BR>>make a good job of it. (My special school is for kids with 'learning and <BR>>emotional difficulties'. They are supposed to be right little b*st*rds. <BR>>But, try as they might, they just can't keep it up.)<BR>>Once they start to understand what its all
about, that there's a whole <BR>>world out there (a world that needs changing, I'm glad you agree) then they <BR>>start to engage with it. They amaze themselves with the quality of their <BR>>reading, writing, rithmetic, art work, sport, and much more. (We also teach <BR>>assertiveness - stand up for what you believe in, argue the case, don't let <BR>>people put you down. And don't put other people down.)<BR>>When our kids say 'b o r i n g' they usually mean something else - 'I don't <BR>>understand this' or 'this is too difficult for me'. So we explain it to <BR>>them. As slowly and carefully as it takes. Some of them have not only <BR>>learnt to do algebra, they have also learnt to ENJOY doing algebra. Once <BR>>the penny drops that its just puzzles.<BR>><BR>>By all means disagree with 'SWP politics'. That is your right. So long as <BR>>you understand what it is that you disagree with. I'm not at all convinced <BR>>that you do understand
what it is that you disagree with. Why not tell me?<BR>><BR>>Ian Wallace<BR>><BR>><BR>>robin&aro <ROBIN_AMPARO@TISCALI.CO.UK>wrote:<BR>>Comments:<BR>><BR>>I agree, feel identified with this character's speech (perhaps a bit too <BR>>verbose).<BR>>If "politics" is not entertaining and fulfilling somehow in your daily <BR>>life, you won't be "doing it" for long. But then, why should you do it for <BR>>ever?<BR>>Anyway, for these characters it is not yet a matter of survival. Yet danger <BR>>is real: we may be just a bunch of clairvoyants (many clairvoyants are now <BR>>dead but they have written), uttering, like poor Cassandra, terrible truths <BR>>that no one listens to because they are unintelligible to the audience.<BR>>But an audience cares for survival...<BR>>anyway, dear project-fallujah members, do you ever have a face- to -face <BR>>meeting with coffee and snacks somewhere in Sheffield? Or with a veg dinner
<BR>>included (democracy café meetings are doing very well and could be joined).<BR>>In my attempts to understand, i have come to some ideas which if not shared <BR>>may be only partially right or partially applicable.<BR>>Anyway, don't flog yourselves, don't blame yourselves, it makes no sense.<BR>>Nice to talk<BR>><BR>>R&A<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>"The farther<BR>> > away the object of our political concern, the less it will mean to us,"<BR>>(disagree with this bit but better talk about it)<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>When you involve yourself in politics out of a<BR>> > sense of obligation, and make political action into a dull <BR>>responsibility rather<BR>> > than an exciting game that is worthwhile for its own sake, you scare <BR>>away people<BR>> > whose lives are already far too dull for any more tedium. When you make <BR>>politics<BR>> > into a lifeless thing, a joyless thing, a dreadful
responsibility, it <BR>>becomes<BR>> > just another weight upon people, rather than a means to lift weight from<BR>> > people. And thus you ruin the idea of politics for the people to whom it <BR>>should<BR>> > be most important. For everyone has a stake in considering their lives, <BR>>in<BR>> > asking themselves what they want out of life and how they can get it. <BR>>But you<BR>> > make politics look to them like a miserable, self-referential, pointless <BR>>middle<BR>> > class/bohemian game, a game with no relevance to the real lives they are <BR>>living<BR>> > out.<BR>> ><BR>> > What should be political? Whether we enjoy what we do to get food and <BR>>shelter.<BR>> > Whether we feel like our daily interactions with our friends, neighbors, <BR>>and<BR>> > coworkers are fulfilling.<BR>> ><BR>> > Whether we have the opportunity to live each day the way we desire to.
<BR>>And<BR>> > "politics" should consist not of merely discussing these questions, but <BR>>of<BR>> > acting directly to improve our<BR>> > lives in the immediate present. Acting in a way that is itself <BR>>entertaining,<BR>> > exciting, joyous-because political action that is tedious, tiresome, and<BR>> > oppressive can only perpetuate<BR>> > tedium, fatigue, and oppression in our lives. No more time should be <BR>>wasted<BR>> > debating over issues that will be irrelevant when we must go to work <BR>>again the<BR>> > next day.<BR>> ><BR>> > No more predictable ritual protests that the authorities know all too <BR>>well how<BR>> > to deal with; no more boring ritual protests which will not sound like a<BR>> > thrilling way to spend a Saturday afternoon to potential <BR>>volunteers-clearly,<BR>> > those won't get us anywhere. Never again shall we "sacrifice ourselves <BR>>for
the<BR>> > cause." For we ourselves, happiness in our own lives and<BR>> > the lives of our fellows, must be our cause!<BR>> ><BR>> > After we make politics relevant and exciting, the rest will follow. But <BR>>from a<BR>> > dreary, merely theoretical and/or ritualized politics, nothing valuable <BR>>can<BR>> > follow. This is not to say that we should show no interest in the <BR>>welfare of<BR>> > humans, animals, or ecosystems that do not contact us directly in our <BR>>day to<BR>> > day existence.<BR>> ><BR>> > But the foundation of our politics must be<BR>> > concrete: it must be immediate, it must be obvious to everyone why it is <BR>>worth<BR>> > the effort, it must be fun in itself. How can we do positive things for <BR>>others<BR>> > if we ourselves do not enjoy<BR>> > our own lives?<BR>> ><BR>> > To make this concrete for a moment: an afternoon of collecting
food from<BR>> > businesses that would have thrown it away and serving it to hungry <BR>>people and<BR>> > people who are tired of<BR>> > working to pay for food-that is good political action, but only if you <BR>>enjoy it.<BR>> > If you do it with your friends, if you meet new friends while you're <BR>>doing it,<BR>> > if you fall in love or trade funny<BR>> > stories or just feel proud to have helped a woman by easing her <BR>>financial needs,<BR>> > that's good political action. On the other hand, if you spend the <BR>>afternoon<BR>> > typing an angry letter to an obscure leftist tabloid objecting to a <BR>>columnist's<BR>> > use of the term "anarcho-syndicalist," that's not going to accomplish <BR>>shit, and<BR>> > you know it.<BR>> ><BR>> > Perhaps it is time for a new word for "politics," since you have made <BR>>such a<BR>> > swear word out of the old one. For no one should
be put off when we talk <BR>>about<BR>> > acting together to improve our lives. And so we present to you our <BR>>demands,<BR>> > which are non-negotiable, and must be met as soon as possible-because <BR>>we're not<BR>> > going to live forever, are we?<BR>> ><BR>> > 1. Make politics relevant to our everyday experience of life again. The <BR>>farther<BR>> > away the object of our political concern, the less it will mean to us, <BR>>the less<BR>> > real and pressing it will<BR>> > seem to us, and the more wearisome politics will be.<BR>> ><BR>> > 2. All political activity must be joyous and exciting in itself. You <BR>>cannot<BR>> > escape from dreariness with more dreariness.<BR>> ><BR>> > 3. To accomplish those first two steps, entirely new political <BR>>approaches and<BR>> > methods must be created. The old ones are outdated, outmoded. Perhaps <BR>>they were<BR>> >
NEVER any<BR>> > good, and that's why our world is the way it is now.<BR>> ><BR>> > 4. Enjoy yourselves! There is never any excuse for being bored... or <BR>>boring!<BR>> ><BR>> > Join us in making the "revolution" a game; a game played for the highest <BR>>stakes<BR>> > of all, but a joyous, carefree game nonetheless!<BR>><BR>><><BR>>Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 03:14:24 +0000<BR>>From: "2 % Human"<BR>>Subject: [Project-fallujah] The Young Ones IS Re:<BR>>[sheffield-anti-war-coalition] Your Politics Are Boring As Fuck ?<BR>>To: project-fallujah@lists.aktivix.org,<BR>>sheffield-anti-war-coalition@yahoogroups.co.uk<BR>>Message-ID: <41AA9410.2020902@diamat.org.uk><BR>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed<BR>><BR>> >>The truth is, your politics are boring to them because they really are<BR>> >>irrelevant. They know that your antiquated styles of protest-your
<BR>>marches, hand<BR>> >>held signs, and gatherings-are now powerless to effect real change <BR>>because they<BR>> >>have become such a predictable part of the status quo. They know that <BR>>your<BR>> >>post-Marxist jargon is off-putting because it really is<BR>> >>a language of mere academic dispute, not a weapon capable of undermining <BR>>systems<BR>> >>of control. They know that your infighting, your splinter groups and <BR>>endless<BR>> >>quarrels over ephemeral theories can never effect any real change in the <BR>>world<BR>> >>they experience from day to day. They know that no matter who is in <BR>>office,<BR>> >>what laws are on the books, what<BR>> >>"ism"s the intellectuals march under, the content of their lives will <BR>>remain the<BR>> >>same. They-we-know that our boredom is proof that these "politics" are <BR>>not the<BR>> >>key to any real
transformation of life. For our lives are boring enough<BR>> >>already!<BR>> >><BR>> >>And you know it too. For how many of you is politics a responsibility? <BR>>Something<BR>> >>you engage in because you feel you should, when in your heart of hearts <BR>>there<BR>> >>are a million things you would rather be doing? Your volunteer work-is <BR>>it your<BR>> >>most favorite pastime, or do you do it out of a sense of obligation? Why <BR>>do you<BR>> >>think it is so hard to motivate others to volunteer as you do? Could it <BR>>be that<BR>> >>it is, above all, a feeling of guilt that drives you to fulfill your <BR>>"duty" to<BR>> >>be politically active? Perhaps you spice up your "work" by trying <BR>>(consciously<BR>> >>or not) to get in trouble with the authorities, to get arrested: not <BR>>because it<BR>> >>will practically serve your cause, but to make things
more exciting, to<BR>> >>recapture a little of the romance of turbulent times now long past. Have <BR>>you<BR>> >>ever felt that you were participating in a ritual, a long-established <BR>>tradition<BR>> >>of fringe protest, that really serves only to strengthen<BR>> >>the position of the mainstream? Have you ever secretly longed to escape <BR>>from the<BR>> >>stagnation and boredom of your political "responsibilities"?<BR>> >><BR>> >>It's no wonder that no one has joined you in your political endeavors. <BR>>Perhaps<BR>> >>you tell yourself that it's tough, thankless work, but somebody's got to <BR>>do it.<BR>> >>The answer is, well, NO.<BR>> >><BR>> >>You actually do us all a real disservice with your tiresome, tedious <BR>>politics.<BR>> >>For in fact, there is nothing more important than politics. NOT the <BR>>politics of<BR>> >>American
"democracy" and law, of who is elected state legislator to sign <BR>>the<BR>> >>same bills and perpetuate the same system. Not the politics of the "I <BR>>got<BR>> >>involved with the radical left because I enjoy quibbling over<BR>> >>trivial details and writing rhetorically about an unreachable utopia" <BR>>anarchist.<BR>> >>Not the politics of any leader or ideology that demands that you make <BR>>sacrifices<BR>> >>for "the cause." But the politics of our everyday lives. When you <BR>>separate<BR>> >>politics from the immediate, everyday experiences of individual men and <BR>>women,<BR>> >>it becomes completely irrelevant. Indeed, it becomes the private domain <BR>>of<BR>> >>wealthy, comfortable intellectuals, who can trouble themselves with such<BR>> >>dreary, theoretical things. When you involve yourself in politics out of <BR>>a<BR>> >>sense of obligation, and make
political action into a dull <BR>>responsibility rather<BR>> >>than an exciting game that is worthwhile for its own sake, you scare <BR>>away people<BR>> >>whose lives are already far too dull for any more tedium. When you make <BR>>politics<BR>> >>into a lifeless thing, a joyless thing, a dreadful responsibility, it <BR>>becomes<BR>> >>just another weight upon people, rather than a means to lift weight from<BR>> >>people. And thus you ruin the idea of politics for the people to whom it <BR>>should<BR>> >>be most important. For everyone has a stake in considering their lives, <BR>>in<BR>> >>asking themselves what they want out of life and how they can get it. <BR>>But you<BR>> >>make politics look to them like a miserable, self-referential, pointless <BR>>middle<BR>> >>class/bohemian game, a game with no relevance to the real lives they are <BR>>living<BR>>
>>out.<BR>> >><BR>> >>What should be political? Whether we enjoy what we do to get food and <BR>>shelter.<BR>> >>Whether we feel like our daily interactions with our friends, neighbors, <BR>>and<BR>> >>coworkers are fulfilling.<BR>> >><BR>> >>Whether we have the opportunity to live each day the way we desire to. <BR>>And<BR>> >>"politics" should consist not of merely discussing these questions, but <BR>>of<BR>> >>acting directly to improve our<BR>> >>lives in the immediate present. Acting in a way that is itself <BR>>entertaining,<BR>> >>exciting, joyous-because political action that is tedious, tiresome, and<BR>> >>oppressive can only perpetuate<BR>> >>tedium, fatigue, and oppression in our lives. No more time should be <BR>>wasted<BR>> >>debating over issues that will be irrelevant when we must go to work <BR>>again the<BR>>
>>next day.<BR>> >><BR>> >>No more predictable ritual protests that the authorities know all too <BR>>well how<BR>> >>to deal with; no more boring ritual protests which will not sound like a<BR>> >>thrilling way to spend a Saturday afternoon to potential <BR>>volunteers-clearly,<BR>> >>those won't get us anywhere. Never again shall we "sacrifice ourselves <BR>>for the<BR>> >>cause." For we ourselves, happiness in our own lives and<BR>> >>the lives of our fellows, must be our cause!<BR>> >><BR>> >>After we make politics relevant and exciting, the rest will follow. But <BR>>from a<BR>> >>dreary, merely theoretical and/or ritualized politics, nothing valuable <BR>>can<BR>> >>follow. This is not to say that we should show no interest in the <BR>>welfare of<BR>> >>humans, animals, or ecosystems that do not contact us directly in our <BR>>day to<BR>>
>>day existence.<BR>> >><BR>> >>But the foundation of our politics must be<BR>> >>concrete: it must be immediate, it must be obvious to everyone why it is <BR>>worth<BR>> >>the effort, it must be fun in itself. How can we do positive things for <BR>>others<BR>> >>if we ourselves do not enjoy<BR>> >>our own lives?<BR>> >><BR>> >>To make this concrete for a moment: an afternoon of collecting food from<BR>> >>businesses that would have thrown it away and serving it to hungry <BR>>people and<BR>> >>people who are tired of<BR>> >>working to pay for food-that is good political action, but only if you <BR>>enjoy it.<BR>> >>If you do it with your friends, if you meet new friends while you're <BR>>doing it,<BR>> >>if you fall in love or trade funny<BR>> >>stories or just feel proud to have helped a woman by easing her <BR>>financial
needs,<BR>> >>that's good political action. On the other hand, if you spend the <BR>>afternoon<BR>> >>typing an angry letter to an obscure leftist tabloid objecting to a <BR>>columnist's<BR>> >>use of the term "anarcho-syndicalist," that's not going to accomplish <BR>>shit, and<BR>> >>you know it.<BR>> >><BR>> >>Perhaps it is time for a new word for "politics," since you have made <BR>>such a<BR>> >>swear word out of the old one. For no one should be put off when we talk <BR>>about<BR>> >>acting together to improve our lives. And so we present to you our <BR>>demands,<BR>> >>which are non-negotiable, and must be met as soon as possible-because <BR>>we're not<BR>> >>going to live forever, are we?<BR>> >><BR>> >>1. Make politics relevant to our everyday experience of life again. The <BR>>farther<BR>> >>away the object of our political concern,
the less it will mean to us, <BR>>the less<BR>> >>real and pressing it will<BR>> >>seem to us, and the more wearisome politics will be.<BR>> >><BR><BR>=== message truncated ===</BLOCKQUOTE>