[AktiviX-discuss] [Fwd: Re: Fwd: We're not there yet. Please show a little love.]

[r7]

autodiscarded again...

r7

-------- Original Message --------
To: Alan Dawson <aland at burngreave.net>,  aktivix-discuss at lists.aktivix.org
Subject: Re: [AktiviX-discuss] Fwd: We're not there yet. Please show a
little	love.

hey alan,

thanks for responding, although i am fairly confident that i'm not
confused about the differences you're describing. i'm a web professional
by day and have done tons of email marketing in time. and as a community
organizer, i've moderated quite a few email lists using the mailman
software engine. so i'm pretty familiar with email headings, standard
email list settings, the relevant terminology, technology, etc.

for the sake of this discussion, i am attaching a screen grab from my
usual email client (thunderbird) as it displays the headings from the
email i wrote about. you can see a clear difference between the "sender"
heading and the "from" heading in the graphic.

and also for reference, let me point out the conflicting headers from
the email itself (with other superfluous headings removed)...

1
	Return-Path: 	<mixnyc-events-bounces at lists.aktivix.org>
2
	Received: 	from somme.tachanka.org (somme.aktivix.org [209.51.172.7])
by mx.google.com with ESMTP id 7si98536vws.162.2009.08.06.08.43.26; Thu,
06 Aug 2009 08:43:26 -0700 (PDT)
3
	Received-SPF: 	pass (google.com: domain of
mixnyc-events-bounces at lists.aktivix.org designates 209.51.172.7 as
permitted sender) client-ip=209.51.172.7;
4
	Authentication-Results: 	mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of
mixnyc-events-bounces at lists.aktivix.org designates 209.51.172.7 as
permitted sender) smtp.mail=mixnyc-events-bounces at lists.aktivix.org
5
	Received: 	from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=somme.tachanka.org) by
somme.tachanka.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from
<mixnyc-events-bounces at lists.aktivix.org>) id 1MZ57h-0000Mr-OW; Thu, 06
Aug 2009 16:43:22 +0100
6
	Received: 	from mail-pz0-f195.google.com ([209.85.222.195]) by
somme.tachanka.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from
<events at mixnyc.org>) id 1MZ4Uk-0000Jo-JS for
mixnyc-events at lists.aktivix.org; Thu, 06 Aug 2009 16:03:17 +0100
7
	Received: 	by pzk33 with SMTP id 33so953779pzk.15 for
<mixnyc-events at lists.aktivix.org>; Thu, 06 Aug 2009 08:03:00 -0700 (PDT)
8
	From: 	MIX NYC <events at mixnyc.org>
9
	To: 	mixnyc-events at lists.aktivix.org
10
	Reply-To: 	events at mixnyc.org
11
	Sender: 	mixnyc-events-bounces at lists.aktivix.org
12
	Errors-To: 	mixnyc-events-bounces at lists.aktivix.org


--- i've numbered the headings to help make things easier to point out.

so as you may notice, when the email was marked "received" after hitting
the server that hosts the aktivix mailman app (looks like...
somme.tachanka.org), the "envelope-from" heading was changed. it went
from <mixnyc-events at lists.aktivix.org> in line 6 to
<mixnyc-events-bounces at lists.aktivix.org> in line 5.

there's also a distinct difference between the "sender" heading (line
11) and the "from" heading (line 8). i've never seen this before (i.e.
probably not "spurious").

i also hesitate to point out the obvious, since i'm really not trying to
be obnoxious. really. but your suggestion that our list subscribers
should take this up with their email providers isn't that helpful, since
we're not really able to communicate with those subscribers via the list
in the first place. nor can we individually reach out to the 5000+
subscribers on our list.

something is going on in the mailman configuration, or in some other
config setting on the tachanka.org server.

so i'm hoping we/you (e.g. the aktivix collective) can pursue this
further without "bouncing" the onus of the problem back to mixnyc.org.

thanks,
frank


Alan Dawson wrote:
>> aktivix folks, please see the thread below. can anyone please shed some
>> insight, and have any better advice? ana's point that this probably
>> affects addresses mostly at yahoo, msn and gmail only underscores *how
>> many* recipients are affected by this.
>>
>> thanks, frank
>>     
>
> Hi...
>
>
> I dont see _any_ problems here... 
>
> To address your main point about the -bounce address on the envelope.
> I think you are confused between the mail envelope and mail content.
> This is standard practice for all sensible mailing list software. 
> If a message is undeliverable for some reason the mailing list software will learn of this, and eventually stop attempting to send mail to rogue addresses.
>
> see http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-admin/node25.html
>
> The email envelope From header is not the same as the email From: in the content
>
> The From: header is what your mail client shows as the mail from:
>
> The difference between email content and envelope is explained in RFC 2821 and 2822
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2821
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2822
>
> Therefore I think that your claims that mail cannot be delivered because of the bounce processing are spurious
> Thats not to say that they are not being delivered, but that your list members should take it up with their mail service providers and whitelist lists.aktivix.org
>
>   


-- 
r7 [at] aktivix [dot] org
gpg footprint: 600F B43A BBBD 3673 B785 E83B 9779 93CD 4DF5 C505
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