[Campaignforrealdemocracy] [Occupy London] GA on Democracy Tonight

Fri Jan 13 16:24:37 UTC 2012

+1 Julie

Also, sorry John I didn't realise you were going to fold in the comments. I must have missed that detail last Tues. Wish I'd known and not wasted time on it. 

Do ignore my version and take forward yours as folded - it's good! 

Especially happy to see it ending stronger (and your reference to 'institutions shall obey' from global democracy statement :)

And yes, the next WG meeting is set for Monday eve 6.30pm so we can take it along further, from tonight then. 

Mark
Sent from phone

-----Original Message-----
From: "julie.timbrell at tiscali.co.uk" <julie.timbrell at tiscali.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 16:01:30 
To: <marknbarrett at googlemail.com>; Shimri<shimriz at gmail.com>
Cc: realdemocracynow<realdemocracynow at groupspaces.com>; <campaignforrealdemocracy at lists.aktivix.org>; <project2012 at googlegroups.com>; occupylondon at groupspaces.com<OccupyLondon at groupspaces.com>
Subject: Re: [Occupy London] GA on Democracy Tonight

Hi All

Given the Democracey working group decided to take this to the 
General Assembly tonight I think this should still go ahead. 

Of course people may , after the debate, want to amend or we 
may not reach consesus. When we disscussed it we spoke about this going 
to the GA ,  partly to  spark debate and gather views. 

If we do not reach consesus the working group group can take on board 
peoples comments at the GA and then put forward a new proposal, prehaps 
on the the 20th . That's all good process.

best wishes

Julie

>----Original Message----

>From: marknbarrett at googlemail.com

>Date: 13/01/2012 15:30 

>To: "Shimri"<shimriz at gmail.com>

>Cc: "realdemocracynow"<realdemocracynow at groupspaces.com>, 
<campaignforrealdemocracy at lists.aktivix.org>, <project2012 at googlegroups.
com>, "occupylondon at groupspaces.com"<OccupyLondon at groupspaces.com>

>Subj: Re: [Occupy London] GA on Democracy Tonight

>

>To take the Democracy Statement forward, shall we:

>

>- say next Friday 20th will definitely be a GA on Democracy

>- put up on the Forum a new version of the statement based on what we 
have

>come up with so far [ including the excellent comments on this thread 
and

>anything that comes up at tonight's GA (if indeed it gets discussed) 
]

>- make a cut-off date for comments on statement say Tues PM

>- hold a democracy WG meeting on Wed ot Thurs eve

>- giving the WG time to prepare to take the statement to the GA with 
any

>various amendment options for GA to consider

>

>It is more than philosophy Inka. It is political, strategic and 
potentially

>of real significance

>

>Mark

>

>On 13 January 2012 15:14, Shimri <shimriz at gmail.com> wrote:

>

>> Hi everyone, I can't come tonight, but I have massive problems with 
the

>> wording right now, and feel I must veto at it's current form (first 
time I

>> ever veto something that goes to the GA):

>>

>> 1. I think it cannot talk about 'assemblies' as the only, utopian, 
'what

>> is needed' - it is definitely part of what is needed, but 
referendums are

>> another model, and electronic democracy (like what is developed in 
occupy

>> right now) are also models.

>>

>> In some parts of the world (for example in situations of apartheid, 
or

>> occupation, like where I am from - Palestine/Israel), even a 
transition to

>> liberal parliamentary state democracy that include everyone and not 
just

>> one ethnic group is part of 'what is needed'.

>>

>> 2. Another massive problem is that you talk about *national 
*parliamentary

>> systems, but do not make that explicit. There are people in the camp 
(me

>> for example) and on our side (George Monbiot, Richard Falk, for 
example)

>> that think that trans-national parliaments will be something very

>> different, substantially.

>>

>> I would therefore suggest to amend the first sentence in the 
following

>> way, to read:

>>

>>  "The crisis of the system opens the way for all of us to be co-
creators

>> of our future, not its victims. We support participatory democratic

>> alternatives to a national parliamentary system that has been 
compromised

>> by corporate and financial interests.

>>

>>

>> 3. I'd also add something about real global democracy:

>>

>>  In order to facilitate the transition to real democracy and the

>> liberation of the disenfranchised majority, and a shift from the G8 
to

>> the G-7billion, we are encouraging the formation of people's 
assemblies

>> in neighbourhoods, workplaces and education establishments across 
the

>> country, assemblies where no one will be excluded, and where the 
voice and

>> sovereignty of the people will be expressed. And we call for a day 
of

>> action** in support."

>>

>>

>> Love and solidarity

>> Shimri

>>

>>  On 13 January 2012 07:41, Mark Barrett <marknbarrett at googlemail.
com>wrote:

>>

>>>  Hey Everyone!

>>>

>>> This is a reminder that tonight's General Assembly (7pm St Pauls) 
is

>>> scheduled to be on the subject of democracy.

>>>

>>> Aswell as an update from our WG, it's been suggested the GA re-
considers

>>> the earlier democracy statement. The earlier statement is as 
follows,

>>> amended to reflect the main objections of the earlier GA:

>>>

>>> *Proposed Statement on Real Democracy*

>>>

>>> "The crisis of the system opens the way for all of us to be co-
creators

>>> of our future, not its victims. What is needed are participatory 
democratic

>>> alternatives to a parliamentary system that has been compromised 
by

>>> corporate and financial interests. In order to facilitate the 
transition to

>>> real democracy and the liberation of the disenfranchised majority, 
we are

>>> encouraging the formation of people's assemblies in 
neighbourhoods,

>>> workplaces and education establishments across the country, 
assemblies

>>> where no one will be excluded, and where the voice and sovereignty 
of the

>>> people will be expressed. And we call for a day of action** in 
support."

>>>

>>> ** A river march to, and day of events at St Mary's Church / 
Putney,

>>> scene of the famous 1647 constitution debates is being proposed.

>>>

>>> ------------

>>>

>>> Apologies if I don't make tonight (am hoping to) but as long as 
some of

>>> you do and sure it will be a good discussion!

>>>

>>> You can read the rest of the info on the WG prior to last Tues 
meeting at

>>> http://www.occupyforum.org.uk/showthread.php?95-Next-Steps-as-at-30-Nov

>>>

>>> And please don't forget to add your comments to Paul's working 
draft
>>> critique document, by latest Saturday evening. Place to 
do so is here:

>>> http://www.occupyforum.org.uk/showthread.php?373-Critique-of-the-Parliamentary-Democracy-State

>>>

>>> Cheers!
>>>
>>> Mark
>>> PS
>>> If you'd like to participate in planning the Putney event, 
please email
>>> me off-list.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Friendly reminder: please 
keep these mailing list discussions to a

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working groups

>>> and individuals directly, or use the Occupy London forum at 
occupylondon

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>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>-- 
>Apathy is Dead !
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/solarider/5254770064/#/photos/solarider/5254770064/lightbox/

>

>--   
>  
>Friendly reminder: please keep these mailing list discussions to a 
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>  
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