[g8-sheffield] People's Front of Judea
Dan
dan at aktivix.org
Fri Jul 15 16:42:20 BST 2005
Sorry to get all Life-of-Brian again, but...
I don't understand - the quote is excellent how? I understand that it's
referring to the Worker's Power position of supporting local social
forums - fine.
What I don't get is this bit: "attempts by the sectarian left to
supplant the Stop the War Coalition by social forums have failed and
deserve to fail. Such
attempts... undermine the attempt to break the Blair government over the
issue on which it is most vulnerable.”
Ian - who exactly decided that the goal was to undermine the Blair
government? That's the key point. I don't remember being involved in
that decision!
The social forum movement attempts to maintain an open forum - if people
within it want to support anti-Blair actions, so be it. But do you
really believe the social forum movement deserves to fail because they
don't support SWP policy? Because that's what you're saying.
This defines anyone who doesn't follow SWP policy as sectarian and / or
deserving of failure! Can you not see why that might upset some people!?
Dan
----
IAN WALLACE wrote:
> In response to Dan and anybody else who 'likes' the quote from the SWP
> conference bulletin. The quote is excellent. Nothing wrong with it at
> all. As anybody who has built a 'local' (eg Nether Edge) anti war
> group will know.
> Ian
>
> */g8-sheffield-request at lists.aktivix.org/* wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Why SWP undermined social forums? (Dan)
> 2. Re: [ssf] Why SWP undermined social forums? (Chris Malins)
> 3. Re: [ssf] Why SWP undermined social forums? (Alan Dawson)
> 4. Re: [matilda] Sheffield Hacklab proposal we have the
> (worldwarfree at riseup.net)
> 5. Statement on the policing of protests (adriana)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:34:34 +0100
> From: Dan
> Subject: [g8-sheffield] Why SWP undermined social forums?
> To: SF UK , SSF
> , G8 Sheffield
> Message-ID: <42D677FA.7060402 at aktivix.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> Hey up,
>
> Just got forwarded this little snippet from the Conference
> proceedings
> of 2004 SWP annual conference. As usual, I really can't quite believe
> anyone would be so stupid. Sectarian? Oh yeah - we're sectarian if we
> don't do what the SWP thinks is right - I forget. Bloody hell - I
> try to
> get over it and just chill out, then I read something like this!
> AAAUGH!
>
> “Because of the presence revolutionary socialists in the
> leadership of
> the Stop the War Coalition, the anti-war movement has come to
> occupy the
> radical space occupied in France by ATTAC or in Italy by the social
> forums and, later, the anti-war movement.
>
> "This is why attempts by the sectarian left to supplant the Stop
> the War
> Coalition by social forums have failed and deserve to fail. Such
> attempts, portrayed as a programmatic shift to left (because social
> forums raise issues of economic exploitation as well as war),
> would in
> practice be a move to the right because they undermine the attempt to
> break the Blair government over the issue on which it is most
> vulnerable.”
>
> http://www.swp.org.uk/resources/Conference2004.pdf
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:54:41 +0100
> From: Chris Malins
> Subject: [g8-sheffield] Re: [ssf] Why SWP undermined social forums?
> To: Dan
> Cc: SF UK , SSF
> , G8 Sheffield
> Message-ID: <42D67CB1.8040609 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> Lets focus on breaking the Blair government, that way if we're really
> lucky we'll get the Tories back in. Any attempt to have an
> intelligent
> political dialogue which could suggest a solution other than
> oscillatory
> two party politics is a swing to the right. Love the SWP.
>
> Dan wrote:
> > Hey up,
> >
> > Just got forwarded this little snippet from the Conference
> proceedings
> > of 2004 SWP annual conference. As usual, I really can't quite
> believe
> > anyone would be so stupid. Sectarian? Oh yeah - we're sectarian
> if we
> > don't do what the SWP thinks is right - I forget. Bloody hell -
> I try to
> > get over it and just chill out, then I read something like this!
> AAAUGH!
> >
> > “Because of the presence revolutionary socialists in the
> leadership of
> > the Stop the War Coalition, the anti-war movement has come to
> occupy the
> > radical space occupied in France by ATTAC or in Italy by the social
> > forums and, later, the anti-war movement.
> >
> > "This is why attempts by the sectarian left to supplant the Stop
> the War
> > Coalition by social forums have failed and deserve to fail. Such
> > attempts, portrayed as a programmatic shift to left (because social
> > forums raise issues of economic exploitation as well as war),
> would in
> > practice be a move to the right because they undermine the
> attempt to
> > break the Blair government over the issue on which it is most
> vulnerable.”
> >
> > http://www.swp.org.uk/resources/Conference2004.pdf
> >
> > Dan
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > ssf mailing list
> > ssf at lists.aktivix.org
> > http://lists.aktivix.org/mailman/listinfo/ssf
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:07:48 +0100
> From: Alan Dawson
> Subject: [g8-sheffield] Re: [ssf] Why SWP undermined social forums?
> To: Dan
> Cc: SF UK , SSF
> , G8 Sheffield
> Message-ID: <1121353668.42d67fc486f37 at springnight.burngreave.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Quoting Dan :
>
>
> > "This is why attempts by the sectarian left to supplant the Stop
> the War
> > Coalition by social forums have failed and deserve to fail. Such
> > attempts, portrayed as a programmatic shift to left (because social
> > forums raise issues of economic exploitation as well as war),
> would in
> > practice be a move to the right because they undermine the
> attempt to
> > break the Blair government over the issue on which it is most
> vulnerable.”
> >
>
> "You are a slow learner," said O'Brien gently. "How can I help
> it?" Winston
> blubbered. "How can I help seeing what is in front of my eyes? Two
> and two are
> four."
>
> "Sometimes, Winston. Sometimes they are five. Sometimes they are
> three.
> Sometimes they are all of them at once. You must try harder. It is
> not easy to
> become sane," O'Brien shrieked. "You must love Big Brother. It is
> not enough to
> obey him .... Room 101!"
>
> AED
> --
> "If you make decisions about software -- or anything -- based
> solely on
> short-term cost and benefit, someone with a longer view can easily
> manoeuver you into a trap from which it is hard to escape."
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 10:38:23 -0700
> From: worldwarfree at riseup.net
> Subject: [g8-sheffield] Re: [matilda] Sheffield Hacklab proposal we
> have the
> To: Chris
> Cc: "M.A.T.I.L.D.A." , Sheffield IMC
> , "List for organising protests at
> the G8 meeting in Sheffield."
> Message-ID: <1121362703.42d6a30f2b2ba at mail.riseup.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> wood tools. a room with own front door onto matlida street.. In
> the next few
> days ill draw some lose ideas ie plans onto paper.. was thinking
> of just
> takeing down the benches where the lab is now.. haveing looked it
> would be to
> much of a job.. there is enough wood to create new desktops.. we
> have all the
> computers including scanner printer ill bung in two cd burners.. i
> reckon talk
> monday come up with a day for building the benches into the room..
> doing other
> task such as fixing locks repairing the broken windows cleaning
> the stairs
> toilet and kitchen area.. it might be cool to get some paint from
> re paint do a
> re paint on the space as we are doing the other work.. then move
> in the donated
> computers.. set up the net work and we should be running.. ill
> bung these
> thoughts onto paper with the plans.. all we are in need off is
> some chairs and
> kitchen stuff ie mugs kettle that kind of shit.. all the other
> stuff we need is
> here in the space.. so with a weekend of hardish work we could
> have the space
> running..
>
> 0742
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 23:29:59 +0100
> From: adriana
> Subject: [g8-sheffield] Statement on the policing of protests
> To: g8-sheffield at lists.aktivix.org
> Message-ID: <42D6E767.8020209 at mixmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
> >>>> >>Sorry if you already have received this report. There is a
> call
> for witnesses of arrests on last paragraphs and useful contact
> numbers
> for those concerned.
>
> >> >> Updates will continue to appear on the G8 Legal Support Group
> website:
> >>>> >> www.g8legalsupport.info
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> The G8 Legal Support Group can be contacted by email:
> >>>> >> g8legalsupport at riseup.net
>
>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Initial Statement on the Policing of the Protests against
> the G8 in
> >>>> >> Scotland in July 2005
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> G8 Legal Support Group
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> During the protests against the G8 over 700 people were
> detained by the
> >>>> >> police, often overnight, and around 354 people have been
> arrested and
> >>>> >> charged. The courts have imposed draconian bail conditions,
> not only
> >>>> >> preventing those arrested from continuing their protests
> against the G8
> >>>> >> summit, but forcing those not resident in Scotland to
> leave at an
> >>>> >> impossible speed. As a direct result of this tactic, some
> people have
> >>>> >> been rearrested for breach of bail. People unable to give an
> address
>
> in
>
> >>>> >> the UK have been remanded in prison, even though in all the
> cases we
>
> are
>
> >>>> >> aware of, none faces serious enough charges to result in a
> prison
> >>>> >> sentence
> >>>> >> even if convicted. Amongst those remanded in custody is
> one person
>
> aged
>
> >>>> >> 16 and a woman with a child.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> The police made widespread use and abuse of powers under
> Section 60 of
> >>>> >> the
> >>>> >> Criminal Justice & Public Order Act 1994. This section is
> supposed to
> >>>> >> be
> >>>> >> used to search for weapons. However it has been used as a
> blanket
> >>>> >> authority to stop and search in a manner designed simply to
> intimidate
> >>>> >> protesters. For example, everyone attending the protest at
> Dungavel
> >>>> >> Detention Centre was subject to a bag search. At the Hori-zone
> >>>> >> ecovillage
> >>>> >> in Stirling, the police at times searched everyone who
> came and
> went.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> The police also often placed protesters in cordons, the
> legality of
> >>>> >> which
> >>>> >> is still uncertain, detaining people for many hours. At the
> Hori-zone
> >>>> >> ecovillage in Stirling for long periods of time the poilce
> refused to
> >>>> >> let
> >>>> >> anyone leave. No legal justification was provided for this
> abuse of
> >>>> >> power.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> The police also banned protests. They cancelled the G8
> Alternatives
> >>>> >> demo
> >>>> >> at Gleneagles "for reasons of public safety" and this led to
> coaches of
> >>>> >> protesters being detented on a roundabout eleven miles
> away from
> >>>> >> Auchterarder for an hour. Eventually the protest was
> allowed to go
> >>>> >> ahead.
> >>>> >> On the this and other days many protesters were arrested
> whilst
> >>>> >> travelling
> >>>> >> to protests and held for alleged conspiracy. At Waverly train
> station
> >>>> >> in
> >>>> >> Edinburgh peole were prevented from holding a spontanous
> protest
>
> against
>
> >>>> >> the ongoing 'war on terror'.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> The public were prevented from attending the sheriff's court,
> meaning
> >>>> >> that
> >>>> >> people faced the court without support from friends.
> Apparently the
> >>>> >> reason was that their may be protests at Court, although
> there
> had been
> >>>> >> no
> >>>> >> actual protests just groups of concerned friends.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Finally we note that this was the largest policing operation
> ever seen
> >>>> >> in
> >>>> >> the UK. The state was clearly prepared to devote unlimited
> resources
>
> to
>
> >>>> >> the policing operation, all with the sole aim of
> preventing the
> leaders
> >>>> >> of
> >>>> >> the G8 of being aware of the popular discontent with their
> policies and
> >>>> >> the effect of those policies on the vast majority of the
> worlds
> >>>> >> population.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> For these reasons we unreservedly condemn the policing of the
> protests
> >>>> >> at
> >>>> >> the G8 summit in Scotland in July 2005.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> NOTES
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Updates will continue to appear on the G8 Legal Support Group
> website:
> >>>> >> www.g8legalsupport.info
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> The G8 Legal Support Group can be contacted by email:
> >>>> >> g8legalsupport at riseup.net
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> The G8 Legal Support Group urgently needs to hear from
> witnesses to
> >>>> >> arrests. Please email us or complete the witness form on our
> website.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> The G8 Legal Support Group will issue a full report on the
> Policing of
> >>>> >> the
> >>>> >> Protests against the G8 in Scotland in July 2005 in due
> course.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> A prisoner support group is being set up. Contact: July 2005
> Prisoner
> >>>> >> Support Group, c/o 17 West Montgomery Place, Edinburgh,
> EH7 5HA.
>
> Phone:
>
> >>>> >> 0131 208 0767 Email: july2005solidarity at yahoo.co.uk
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> www.ldmg.org.uk
> >>>> >> Postal address: LDMG, C/o BM Haven, London WC1N 3XX
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> ---------------------------------
> --
>
>
> Please, never despise the translator. She is the mailman of human
> civilisation.
> (Pushkin).
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://www.sheffield.dissent.org.uk/
> http://wiki.sheffieldsocialforum.org.uk/G8
> g8-sheffield mailing list
> g8-sheffield at lists.aktivix.org
> http://lists.aktivix.org/mailman/listinfo/g8-sheffield
>
>
> End of g8-sheffield Digest, Vol 5, Issue 12
> *******************************************
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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