[matilda] RE: Re[2]: Matilda's non-commercial use clause

[dan at aktivix.org]

No, I think I got the argument: my point was, your argument has moral certainty
that, perhaps, someone taking state benefits shouldn't be trying to impose on
others.

One of the key parts seems to be: it's OK for the rest of the world, but not in
MATILDA.

Again, who else aside from you believes this?  You've always had a quite
ferocious vision of what you, personally, believe MATILDA should be.  Thing is
Joe, we all have our own visions of what it should be as well.  What I haven't
heard is any argument as to why yours is better than anyone else's.  

I've seen you refer to the fact the the space came out of G8, and that it's
resisting neoliberalism. There are plenty of arguments to say that allowing
people to produce their own goods and sell them does exactly that, just as
workers taking control of factory and collectively selling their goods would
do.  

You may disagree - but you're one person in MATILDA.

In some ways, this is one time I'm glad this is happening on-list, because
actually trying to talk to you about any of this is terrifying.  But you're
still shouting, even on-list.  

We've agreed we work by consensus - you agree we did that, yes? - and that is
about the personal being political, as much as anything else.  It's as much
about how we relate to each other in the space - of which this list is an
extension.

I find it difficult to argue or discuss with someone who will say things like
'read my e-mails next time', as though the truth of your theoretical insight
should be self-apparent to us all.  I don't feel as though you're willing or
able to concede that other people might have different points of view.  Yes -
that does mean moving toward accepting that you're position might alter in the
light of discussion and argument.  But if you're not willing to do that, then
you're a fundamentalist.

It makes MATILDA just like any other political battle-space: the loudest, the
most forceful, the most tenacious, wins. 

Maybe that's a true reflection of politics.  But if there's *one* thing I wanted
MATILDA to be, it wasn't free of all selling-of-paintings - it was a safe
space, where the kind of political arse I've had to put up with from, say, the
SWP in the Social Forum movement, wasn't present: a single-minded
will-to-power.

Maybe Steve *wants* to sell his labour.  I don't think he's suffering from any
kind of false consciousness - although perhaps you could enlighten us, maybe we
all are.  After all, we're all a bit naive really.

Oo, I feel a berserk coming on, I think I'll stop...

love

Dan
---


Quoting Joe Morris <malatesta_uk at hotmail.com>:

> a) I'm not aware of anyone recieveing wages
> b) i have nothing against recouping costs
> c) read my emails next time. You seem to miss out
> the fundamental part of argument.
> 
> Yes, Steve has five kids. So lets find another way to support him
> than saying "sell your labour."
> 
> 
> 
> =====================
> 
> "Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination"
> - Oscar Wilde
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: dan at aktivix.org
> To: matilda at lists.aktivix.org
> Subject: [matilda] RE: Re[2]: Matilda's non-commercial use clause
> Date: Wed,  9 Nov 2005 13:27:50 +0000
> 
> Allo Joe
> 
>  > There are many people within Matilda who have chosen not to work,
>  > including Steve. This is a conscious decision and one I share. But I put
>  > time
>  > into Matilda working in the Cafe because I choose to do that, and I do 
> not
>  > ask for a wage. I am equally as poor, but I would never ask the Cafe to
>  > supplement my benefit because I choose give time there.
> 
> Now, I did hear some time back that one key member of the cafe collective 
> *was*
> taking some wages for themselves from the profit.  Was that not true?
> 
> I also always took money back from the cafe for food I bought, so got my 
> costs
> covered.
> 
>  > We can do that OUTSIDE Matilda. We're all "strapped for cash", but we
>  > should find other ways to ensure our subsistence. If we have the idea's
>  > and the will power, then we have no excuse.
> 
> Will power? Eh?
> 
> Plus: you don't have any kids to look after.
> 
>  > If we go down this road of allowing commercial gain to happen within
>  > the space, then what are we?
> 
> What - you're either with us or your with the neoliberals?  This is a bit 
> black
> and white, ain't it? I guess you could say that it *is* a black and white
> issue...
> 
> Personally, I don't think it's much of a line in the sand. Neoliberals set 
> up
> export processing zones, backed by the World Bank, and squeeze the poorest 
> for
> all they're worth.  Selling a few paintings (if the artist is lucky) is most
> definitely not a slippery slope to worker abuse, I don't think.  It may,
> perhaps, get one or two extra presents for Xmas for the kids, but that's 
> about
> it.
> 
> Cor - it's a classic liberal dilemma! What collective rules do we need to be
> allowed to be autonomous?
> 
> And while we're on it, on what basis do you justify taking money from us
> taxpayers to fund your moral purity? I don't remember agreeing to pay any of
> 
> my
> wages into a 'fund the anarchists' bursary scheme...?
> 
> Can we get consensus on whether us tax-payers should be paying for you, Joe?
> 
> My point is, you choose to raise your money that way (and I presume you 
> don't
> say the same things you have here at your jobseeker's interviews!) -  and I
> understand why.  But it really, *really* ain't any position to be slinging 
> mud
> from.
> 
> If someone else decides to raise a bit of cash from selling their work, 
> good!
> You've decided to raise it by lying to the state / indirectly taking money 
> from
> the rest of the UK.  Each to their own, live and let live.  Neither is going
> 
> to
> be getting rich.
> 
> And at least the people who part with their money for paintings do it
> voluntarily! The people of Britain have to give it to you by force of law.
> 
> So it turns out, by taking state money, you're actually helping to underpin 
> the
> perpetuation of the state. Oh, the sweet irony...
> 
> love
> 
> Dan
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