Mailtda's non-commercial use clause, was: Re: [matilda] crisisof consensus

[dan at aktivix.org]

Oh God,

Breaking the one e-mail rule again, sorry...

1. Joe: Steve just made a specific request to be kept off this list. Would you
do him the courtesy of honouring that please? Whether he bought it up at a
meeting is beside the point: he doesn't want his personal life discussed here.
I've already apologised to him.

So can we keep the argument abstract please?  The subject is selling of stuff
where the profit goes to the individual seller.

2. These arguments will go back and forth on list. Can we discuss it at the next
Monday meeting?  If we do, it will need facilitating well - otherwise it'll
merely be a slanging match.

Gosh, having said that, I nearly started arguing on list again.  I must resist
the temptation!

Bye

Dan
---

Quoting Joe Morris <malatesta_uk at hotmail.com>:

> Steve>The thing with principles is that for them to mean anything they have
> Steve>to be applied consistently to all cases. If they're not then they are
> Steve>worthless.
> 
> I agree.
> 
> Steve>If Matilda were to agree to the above principle then we have to apply
> Steve>it consistently. That means anything sold in Matilda where some of the
> Steve>profits were used for private financial gain should also not be
> Steve>allowed.
> 
> You have used the word "were" not "are". No one is objecting to Steve
> making money buy selling his paintings.
> 
> Steve>The most obvious activity that should cease as a result of the above
> Steve>principle has to be the selling of alcohol. Private profits go to: the
> Steve>shop it was bought from, the distributer, and the manufacturer. In
> Steve>fact a whole bunch of people from shop assistants to lorry drivers and
> Steve>corporate directors profit (privately gain) from our selling of
> Steve>alcohol.
> 
> No one has objected to Steve making a profit outside of Matilda. I would
> argue that he doesn't have to, but that's not my place to say.
> 
> Buying alcohol does indeed make profits for the brewery etc (like buying
> fuel for your car, or clothes to wear - it's capitalism), but the alcohol
> bought is outside of Matilda and sold inside for the benefit of Matilda
> or for some group etc.
> 
> This argument implies that I do not understand or accept that some
> people need to sell their labour to survive. I do accept that, I understand
> that Steve may need, or may want to sell his paintings, as much as I
> disagree with that and in fact I disagree so much I work to end it. But that
> argument cannot be asserted universally in daily life. It doesn't work, and
> in the context of daily life I wouldn't ever preach to Steve about how he
> can and cannot make money.
> 
> Like the brewery making a profit, I object to equally and at the same
> time I am hopefully, by my political activity, trying to create a way to
> destroy that relationship. Outside of Matilda the brewery makes a
> profit, so does the worker, so does ME in my job and so does Steve
> with his paintings.
> 
> But if a brewery came to Matilda and said "can we sell beer in your space"
> then the answer would be no, the same if I came to Matilda and said,
> can I have a wage for chopping veg. The same should apply to anyone
> or anything, which desires to use Matilda as a space to create
> profit.
> 
> Steve>Unlike the artists who might sell their work, some of those in the
> Steve>alcohol chain are properly exploited in the Marxian sense. Surplus
> Steve>value goes the owners of the means of production. So we could say that
> Steve>the selling of alcohol is actually far worse than the selling of
> Steve>locally produced art. Alcohol entails exploitation, art direct from
> Steve>artists does not.
> 
> If Steve wants to sell his art and donate the money to Matilda or use
> some of it to recoup his material costs and donate the rest to Matilda
> then fine. That is how the parties work, how the Cafe is aiming
> to work and how the gig space works. That is how the selling of booze
> works.
> 
> Outside of Matilda the brewery makes profit, as would Steve if he sold
> his paintings. Inside Matilda, the collectivity and desire for alternatives
> means that we subvert those goods and those relationships and use
> them to generate needed cash for the running of the space and
> alternatives to those power relationships.
> 
> We can't control what goes on outside at the moment, but we can
> control what happens within Matilda.
> 
> Steve>Therefore if the Art shop is stopped on the above principle we must
> Steve>also stop the selling of alcohol too. The only source of alcohol
> Steve>permissible would be that brewed by people who make no private
> Steve>financial gain at all - though I admit finding such a source might be
> Steve>tricky.
> 
> Within that logic Steve couldn't use paint and the Cafe couldn't buy food.
> We live in a capitalist society. There is nothing we can do about that right
> 
> now.
> We just have to grin and bare it, or we can moderate our daily lives so that
> participation within it is at a minimum.
> 
> But at the same time, we can subvert those goods we have to buy to create
> something valuable and something different.
> 
> Let's sell Steve's art. Let's make a shop where artists could sell their 
> art,
> but let's sell it so that artists can recoup material costs and so that
> Matilda can make some money. Let's fight the fact capitalism makes
> us sell our labour and forces' us all to have these arguments by making
> an alternative
> 
> Steve>Ideally we could make our own. But we don't live in an ideal world. I
> Steve>like Tequila. I'd need an ethical source of cacti to start with. Maybe
> Steve>the Zapatistas can send us some.
> 
> I would be up for making that a project if others wanted?
> 
> Joe
> 
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