[pagan-magik] stalin badder than hitler?

Tue Nov 23 10:09:05 GMT 2004

bollocks, i can't believe i missed u! I thought i had searched all the RFH floors! Oh well, if your phone died it died i guess...i'll just take it out on a McDonalds window when I see one.

Am going to the Lapis Companions ritual this friday, but will definetley catch up with u+meet the group soon which i look forward to.

As far as your points on Stalinism go, I do think it's important not to throw the baby out with the bathwater and stick to facts and figures which over decades have gained concensus among international historians of all shades and opinions http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0%2C3604%2C790476%2C00.html.

You say, for example, that "during WWII prisoners tried to escape Stalinist concentration camps by getting into Nazi ones as the conditions were better"...mmm...well, ok, streching a point it is true that Soviet escapees may have been welcomed on a good day by Nazis as opponents of Stalin.  However, that welcome would quickly go cold because Russians would also been catagorized as sub-human Slavs with only 10% chance of surviving the SS-run camps, a far greater chance of death than in any Soviet labour camp by any estimate.

Regarding your views on Stalinist "death camps", again, where on earth did you get the figures that  "more people were killed in Stalinist death camps than Nazi ones?

steve ash <steveash_2001 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Sorry we missed you at RFH Barry, we were in our usual
place now, on balcony above the ground floor bar. Alas
my phone died before 8pm when you rang :(

We are going to Tufnel Park squat this Friday, maybe
see you there?

On Stalinism vs Nazism, my assessment was based on the
fact they were both Totalitarian regimes and both had
death camps. But more people were killed in Stalinist
camps than Nazi ones, and during WWII prisoners tried
to escape Stalinist concentration camps (not death
camps) by getting into Nazi ones as the conditions
were better. Though thats not an apology for the
Nazis, their lower death toll was probably due to
their shorter life as a regime. With more time they
might have surpassed the Stalinists. Nothing to choose
between them politically though in my opinion, but I
do enjoy inverting popular perceptions...

Steve 

--- Barry O'Dea wrote: 
> I agree with your sentiments about Fallujah steve,
> but whatever you think about the composition of
> resistance in the city, they are right to defend it
> against US occupation. Period.
> 
> As regards your point that "we now know the Soviet
> Union [was] worse than Nazi Germany"? Do we? 
> Agreed, the stalinist ideology, or state socialism,
> did far more to bury the spirit of social revolution
> than any amount of capitalist propaganda but don't
> you think view this is a bit strong?
> 
> Is there proof/links etc is there to support this
> claim?
> 
> steve ash wrote:
> Re Fallujah: Well all the evidence points to them
> being organised by Saddam Hussein loyalists (the
> ones
> still in Fallujah), so therefore 'Stalinist'
> fascists,
> and/or by the Al Qaieda wannabes (the ones that
> legged
> it from Fallujah before the massacre) so therefore
> Islamic fascists. This might be western propaganda,
> but then thats what the self deluded left once said
> about the Soviet Union, and we now know that was
> even
> worse than Nazi Germany. So I'm not interested in
> wish
> fullfilment fantasies. That said if there was a
> genuine People's Majahadeen I'd support them, given
> the war crimes of the US. Though I've seen no
> evidence
> of their existance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > I'm also tempted to support the Iraqi resistance.
> > I'm not sure why you 
> > would consider people defending their homes to be
> > "fascistic"???? What 
> > have you been reading pray-tell?
> > 
> > Sean
> > 
> > 
> > I don't know what Steve has been reading but I
> have
> > read some
> > pretty worrying stuff too. For example, Jo Wilding
> > [1] (whose
> > credentials could scarcely be better), apparently
> > forwarded a
> > comunique from the Organisation for Women's
> Freedom
> > in Iraq [2]
> > titled "Criminal acts committed by Islamists
> during
> > the month
> > of Ramadan against Women in Iraq" which contained
> > extremely
> > distubing allegations against Abdulla al-Janabi's
> > Mujahideen
> > fighters and others. Interestingly, the relevent
> > link on the
> > OWFI website is not working, but the communiqe is
> > available
> > here [3].
> > 
> > [1]: http://www.wildfirejo.org.uk/
> > [2]: http://www.equalityiniraq.com/
> > [3]:
> >
>
http://www.sohh.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-515240
> > 
> > -- 
> > Ian Gregory
> > http://www.zenatode.org.uk/ian/
> > 
> > 
> > This looks like it might be interesting:
> > 
> > Gender, Myth & Mythmaking: International
> Conference
> > School of African & Oriental Studies
> > 14th-15th December 2004
> > 
> >
>
http://www.soas.ac.uk/Religions/gender_myth/home.html
> > 
> > -- 
> > Ian Gregory
> > http://www.zenatode.org.uk/ian/
> > 
> > ------------------------------
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
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