[ssf] [poltheory!] Wiberawism

Wed Mar 2 11:13:21 GMT 2005

The British system of government is traditionally rather cleverly 
designed to prevent anyone from having any more power than is absolutely 
necessary. The Lords are not elected, or representative, but they do 
have a tendency to block particularly stupid bits of legislation which 
can be more easily whipped through the lower house. First past the post 
voting prevents extremists (like ourselves, The Greens, the BNP, the 
Liberal Democrats) from ever having a significant influence in 
government, thus ensuring that all governemnt is largely a balancing act 
between making stuff slightly better and making stuff not worse than it 
was before, for whichever loosely defined chunk of the population votes 
for you. This is why mainstream political parties are generally 
terrified of doing anything new like actually believing scientists about 
climate change, or admitting that an infinte sustainable consumption 
model of economics is really dumb. They are terrified of no longer being 
in the top two, which is complete political death.

There is also a check provided by special interests, ie those with power 
and wealth, through the natural conservatism of the winner. Noone who is 
doing really well now is ever completely relaxed about big changes. In 
theory the cabinet and the Commons should provide a check on the 
executive, although this is actually looking rather weak recently as 
parties use power structures to promote obedience as a prime virtue. 
Further, the courts will interpret any given law, reducing the 
predictability of application.

And thus people are largely liberated from the state. Far more 
interesting is the fact that because business is the expression of the 
liberty of individuals, most liberalists tend not to see the power and 
inflluence of business in our lives as a restriction on freedom. You are 
not forced to work a 37 hour week except by the fact that if you don't 
you will struggle to support yourself. If government held people tied 
into forced labour in a similarly compelling way, the response would be 
quite different.

Chris

Dan wrote:
> Hey up,
> 
> I was just trying to justify why I always wittter on about liberalism 
> (two key points - limiting power and guarding individual freedom) - but, 
> thinking about it, I'm having extreme difficulty working out how what I 
> think differs from anarchism...!
> 
> But hey, that's OK!  We live in a modern, consumerist society - I can 
> pick and choose my political beliefs from a great, vast tapas menu of 
> tidbits, without ever really committing myself to anything...!
> 
> Dan
> ----
> 
> Jase wrote:
> 
>> As a political theory liberalism is about the freedom of the individual,
>> rather than the need for a controlling state, but also entwined with 
>> ideas of
>> equality and compassion. So people can do what they want so long as 
>> they are
>> tolerant and nice. In politics you can have the economic liberalism of 
>> the
>> right, or the social liberlism of the left, or a mish-mash. Liberal is 
>> on the
>> left relative to a political mainstream, but just a word at the end of 
>> the
>> day. Look at National Socialism aka Nazi's.
>>
>> On the torture of Iranian bloggers, Iran is run by a bunch of corrupt 
>> dictats
>> who have used religion as an excuse to seize power and wealth. The 
>> British
>> government gets other people to do the torture for them
>> (www.channel4.com/torture) and the state system has many flaws, but 
>> usually
>> the system values human qualities over ideology (there is the ideology of
>> capital and consumerism but it's limits on individual freedom are not so
>> severe, at least in this country at this time).
>>
>> Luckily we are some way from a absolute ruling elite and armed militia, I
>> think justice and the machinery of state has a lot to do with it. If 
>> there is
>> a rule book which says what is right and wrong, on the one hand it's a 
>> pain if
>> you want to change something, but on the other hand it's a pain if you 
>> want to
>> change something. So we don't have a system where the rulers of the 
>> day decide
>> what the law is and we have to conform. Any change has to jump through 
>> hoops.
>> It is a major reason to try and limit the control politicians have. 
>> Although
>> they are in theory accountable, they are in no way ever impartial. In 
>> fact
>> generally the power of any group should be limited in my view.
>>
>> The problems with the justice in this country is usually in the courtroom
>> rather than the laws themselves. We are lucky to live here, and that 
>> should
>> never be forgotton, sadly we only have what we see in daily life to 
>> compare it
>> with and life is a big case of 'I'm alright Jack', so those who are 
>> content
>> with the status quo have no reason to get involved in changing it, or 
>> in fact
>> resisting change instigated by those in power.
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>> "Everyone believes very easily what they fear or desire" - Jean de la 
>> Fontaine
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "noone noone" <machinevman at hotmail.com>
>>  
>>
>>> I don't really have a problem with liberalism per se but the thing i 
>>> find
>>> difficult with it is the fact that it has so many different hats!  
>>> Sometimes
>>> i don't really know what it is....
>>>
>>> In the 1800s there was a party called the liberal party that took it 
>>> upon
>>> themselves to try to stop people (especially women) from having the 
>>> vote and
>>> beleived in defending the british empire and participated in a large 
>>> amount
>>> imperialist wars.
>>>
>>> Then there is the modern day "liberal democrats" who in my opinion 
>>> tend to
>>> be very opportunistic and all things to all people, currently they 
>>> oppose
>>> detention without trial unless it is OK'd by a judge.
>>>
>>> Then there is dan's very own brand of liberalism which is best 
>>> described as
>>> being woolly(!)
>>>
>>> I think it is about trying to be nice to people and doing stuff for the
>>> greater good but who knows!
>>>
>>> from
>>> cuthbert
>>>
>>>   
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- >
>>  
>>
>>>> From: Dan <dan at aktivix.org>
>>>> To: SSF <ssf at lists.aktivix.org>, tom stafford <    >
>>>> Subject: [ssf] Iran: bloggers arrested and beaten
>>>> Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 12:55:22 +0000
>>>>
>>>> Hey up,
>>>>
>>>> Being one of them ummy arry liberal types, I never like to miss a 
>>>> chance to
>>>> qualify and compare.
>>>>
>>>> This story:
>>>>
>>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4283231.stm
>>>>
>>>> On Iranian bloggers being arrested, beaten and tortured, for example.
>>>> Which is to say, however much things are going in the wrong direction,
>>>> we're a long way from this. (And it's a million miles from saying 
>>>> that our
>>>> thoughts are controlled by the corporate press.  Maybe - but we have
>>>> Indymedia, blogs, freedom of speech, printing presses not owned by the
>>>> state all over the place...)
>>>>
>>>> The other really interesting thing about all this - e.g. with the 
>>>> Indymedia
>>>> servers, and more recently as regards Iraq's assets being sold off the
>>>> highest bidder, is how much you get to hear folk who usually talk of
>>>> breaking the state / how much law is just an extension of capitalism 
>>>> start
>>>> to cite various international and national laws in their defence.
>>>>
>>>> And why not?  It's one reason why we're not going to end up like 
>>>> Iran any
>>>> time soon - coz of the checks and balances of our judicial system.  
>>>> It may
>>>> not be perfect, but it ain't a police state.  Yet.
>>>>
>>>> Hope that gets someone riled enough to argue with me.
>>>>
>>>> love
>>>>
>>>> Dan
>>>>
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>>>>     
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________
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>>>
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>>>   
>>
>>
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