[ssf] [poltheory!] Wiberawism

Wed Mar 2 11:02:19 GMT 2005

I think that society's needs are far more complex than 'limiting power and 
guarding individual freedom'.  Afterall society is and will always be a vast 
web of inter-dependent individuals and groups, therefore there needs to be 
some level of social restraints.  It was the 'individual freedom' part of 
the liberal party's ideology that led to most of them them to oppose welfare 
in the 1800s  etc...  It was only when under pressure from the rise of the 
labour party that pushed them into creating an NHS etc...

In the financial times yesterday it pointed out that the lib dems control a 
disproportionate number of extremely rich constituencies and extremely poor 
constituencies - an example of 'liberals' saying one thing to one set of 
people and another to another set.  Any ideology including liberalism is so 
easily twisted and is so flexible that in my opinion it is not worth 
following.  Most of the times it ends up being a justification for what 
someone would do anyway.  'Liberalism' is just a label and i would prefer 
people judge me for what i do and say rather than the label i choose to 
wear.

from
cuthbert

>From: Dan <dan at aktivix.org>
>To: Jase <spodulike at freeuk.com>
>CC: ssf at lists.aktivix.org
>Subject: [ssf] [poltheory!] Wiberawism
>Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 08:32:52 +0000
>
>Hey up,
>
>I was just trying to justify why I always wittter on about liberalism (two 
>key points - limiting power and guarding individual freedom) - but, 
>thinking about it, I'm having extreme difficulty working out how what I 
>think differs from anarchism...!
>
>But hey, that's OK!  We live in a modern, consumerist society - I can pick 
>and choose my political beliefs from a great, vast tapas menu of tidbits, 
>without ever really committing myself to anything...!
>
>Dan
>----
>
>Jase wrote:
>
>>As a political theory liberalism is about the freedom of the individual,
>>rather than the need for a controlling state, but also entwined with ideas 
>>of
>>equality and compassion. So people can do what they want so long as they 
>>are
>>tolerant and nice. In politics you can have the economic liberalism of the
>>right, or the social liberlism of the left, or a mish-mash. Liberal is on 
>>the
>>left relative to a political mainstream, but just a word at the end of the
>>day. Look at National Socialism aka Nazi's.
>>
>>On the torture of Iranian bloggers, Iran is run by a bunch of corrupt 
>>dictats
>>who have used religion as an excuse to seize power and wealth. The British
>>government gets other people to do the torture for them
>>(www.channel4.com/torture) and the state system has many flaws, but 
>>usually
>>the system values human qualities over ideology (there is the ideology of
>>capital and consumerism but it's limits on individual freedom are not so
>>severe, at least in this country at this time).
>>
>>Luckily we are some way from a absolute ruling elite and armed militia, I
>>think justice and the machinery of state has a lot to do with it. If there 
>>is
>>a rule book which says what is right and wrong, on the one hand it's a 
>>pain if
>>you want to change something, but on the other hand it's a pain if you 
>>want to
>>change something. So we don't have a system where the rulers of the day 
>>decide
>>what the law is and we have to conform. Any change has to jump through 
>>hoops.
>>It is a major reason to try and limit the control politicians have. 
>>Although
>>they are in theory accountable, they are in no way ever impartial. In fact
>>generally the power of any group should be limited in my view.
>>
>>The problems with the justice in this country is usually in the courtroom
>>rather than the laws themselves. We are lucky to live here, and that 
>>should
>>never be forgotton, sadly we only have what we see in daily life to 
>>compare it
>>with and life is a big case of 'I'm alright Jack', so those who are 
>>content
>>with the status quo have no reason to get involved in changing it, or in 
>>fact
>>resisting change instigated by those in power.
>>
>>Jason
>>
>>
>>"Everyone believes very easily what they fear or desire" - Jean de la 
>>Fontaine
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "noone noone" <machinevman at hotmail.com>
>>
>>
>>>I don't really have a problem with liberalism per se but the thing i find
>>>difficult with it is the fact that it has so many different hats!  
>>>Sometimes
>>>i don't really know what it is....
>>>
>>>In the 1800s there was a party called the liberal party that took it upon
>>>themselves to try to stop people (especially women) from having the vote 
>>>and
>>>beleived in defending the british empire and participated in a large 
>>>amount
>>>imperialist wars.
>>>
>>>Then there is the modern day "liberal democrats" who in my opinion tend 
>>>to
>>>be very opportunistic and all things to all people, currently they oppose
>>>detention without trial unless it is OK'd by a judge.
>>>
>>>Then there is dan's very own brand of liberalism which is best described 
>>>as
>>>being woolly(!)
>>>
>>>I think it is about trying to be nice to people and doing stuff for the
>>>greater good but who knows!
>>>
>>>from
>>>cuthbert
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>----- Original Message ----- >
>>
>>
>>>>From: Dan <dan at aktivix.org>
>>>>To: SSF <ssf at lists.aktivix.org>, tom stafford <    >
>>>>Subject: [ssf] Iran: bloggers arrested and beaten
>>>>Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 12:55:22 +0000
>>>>
>>>>Hey up,
>>>>
>>>>Being one of them ummy arry liberal types, I never like to miss a chance 
>>>>to
>>>>qualify and compare.
>>>>
>>>>This story:
>>>>
>>>>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4283231.stm
>>>>
>>>>On Iranian bloggers being arrested, beaten and tortured, for example.
>>>>Which is to say, however much things are going in the wrong direction,
>>>>we're a long way from this. (And it's a million miles from saying that 
>>>>our
>>>>thoughts are controlled by the corporate press.  Maybe - but we have
>>>>Indymedia, blogs, freedom of speech, printing presses not owned by the
>>>>state all over the place...)
>>>>
>>>>The other really interesting thing about all this - e.g. with the 
>>>>Indymedia
>>>>servers, and more recently as regards Iraq's assets being sold off the
>>>>highest bidder, is how much you get to hear folk who usually talk of
>>>>breaking the state / how much law is just an extension of capitalism 
>>>>start
>>>>to cite various international and national laws in their defence.
>>>>
>>>>And why not?  It's one reason why we're not going to end up like Iran 
>>>>any
>>>>time soon - coz of the checks and balances of our judicial system.  It 
>>>>may
>>>>not be perfect, but it ain't a police state.  Yet.
>>>>
>>>>Hope that gets someone riled enough to argue with me.
>>>>
>>>>love
>>>>
>>>>Dan
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>
>>
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