[Campaignforrealdemocracy] Democracy, Justice, Community, Trust

[Mark Barrett]

Shall we encourage this kind of discussion to take place on the 2012 list or
at CRD? Could get confusing!

2009/6/9 Justin Baidoo-Hackman <justinthelibsoc at googlemail.com>

> The family is not a model of democracy nor justice!
>
> Sorry to make my first email a contentious one but I want to contest
> Robin's last email and address his questions:
>
> Is democracy without justice worth having?
>
> Depends who you are and what you define as "justice". I would argue that a
> just society has never existed but many societies have claimed to be a
> democracy. The athenian democracy was based on slavery and most
> "democracies" historically have excluded large sections of people whether by
> gender, age, race or economic status.
>
> If you believe that a just society shouldn't discriminate on any or some of
> these things then we can say that democracy and justice are not mutually
> inclusive.
>
> Must democracy come before justice?
> Again it depends on your definition of justice! I would claim that liberty
> is dependent on being able not only to act without coercion but also to
> enable people to flourish whilst being responsible to themselves and the
> community they reside.
>
> Democracy means people rule, if the people don't rule but rather are
> instructed by others how they can live... can justice be possible? I think
> not.
>
> What's the reality?
> I guess that as long as humans are capable of infinite wants on a world
> with finite resources. We are perpetually limited by our environment
> (including other people). How there is a question of distribution and
> management of resources.
>
> It is not true that families are democratic (neither should they be when it
> involves minors), there is usually patriarchial hierarchy that decides how
> resources are used and can often exploit their children for the parents
> gain.
>
> Ah but maybe Robin means the ideal middle class family where the division
> of labour has been agreed by the parents and the children grow up into
> considerate and responsible adults.
>
> They probably refrain from fee paying education and private tutors as they
> want their offspring to learn that applied intelligence and effort rather
> than the ability to pay for assistance is how to get ahead. They never fail
> to apply the correct punishment and so the appropriate level of praise and
> reward to encourage...
>
> Nonsense if you think most people have experienced that. I'm grateful for
> my parents but it was quite dysfunctional in modest and always unintended
> ways.
>
> However we could learn that if we treated all peopple as if they were
> extended family, we could get closer to achieving justice. But this would
> mean radical change in the economic system we live in. The elites aren't
> feeling the brotherly love yet and I doubt they ever will.
>
> Societies are made up of differing and competing interests. Elites have
> conflicting interests with the downtrodden this isn't short-termist thinking
> it is survival instinct. Survival and maintenance of the elite.
>
> I think communities are built on shared experience and interests. Family is
> our first experience of community and it can work or can be repressive.
>
> Building physical communities means more than shared space, it means shared
> ownership, responsibility and meaningful communication.
>
> In this environment, democracy and justice can be built.
>
> Your thoughts
>
> Justin
>
> On Jun 9, 2009 4:11 PM, "Robin Smith" <robinsmith3 at googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear All,
>
> Thank you for introducing me to the meaning of real democracy last
> night, it was entirely rewarding. My parting questions still stand:
>
> "Is democracy without justice worth having ? Are democracy and justice
> mutually inclusive activities? Must democracy come before justice ?
> What would the people rather have, democracy or justice? Both are
> ideal but what is the reality ?". Am I being too deep here???
>
> The term "community" fascinated me too. Is the following text the
> language you might have been looking for when describing the term
> community ?
>
> "A primitive tribe may not produce much wealth, but all members are
> capable of an independent life. Each shares all the knowledge
> possessed by the tribe. They know the habits of animals, birds, and
> fishes. They can make their own shelter, clothing, and weapons. In
> short, they are all capable of supplying their own wants. The
> independence of all of the members makes them free contracting parties
> in their relations with the community."
>
> If these words inspire you the full chapter and entire book can be found
> here:
> http://www.henrygeorge.org/pchp23.htm
>
> Isn't it true that we have all belonged to a community possessing
> ultimate democracy and justice? Our Family. This community does not
> have to create a debt risk to function. It works on trust using pure
> credit. No constitution is required. Is greater trust therefore the
> key to the re-establishment of a just and functioning democratic
> society ?
>
> Looking forward to meeting again soon.
>
> Brgds
> Robin.
>
> --
> Economics Comment
> http://gco2e.blogspot.com/
>
> Work
> http://www.systemicfiscalreform.org/
>
> About Me
> http://fon.gs/robinsmithme/
>
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-- 
"We hear men speaking for us of new laws strong and sweet /Yet is there no
man speaketh as we speak in the street.”
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