[Campaignforrealdemocracy] Fwd: [project2012] Re: AWTW, centralism and antisemitism

Sat Jun 12 10:36:07 UTC 2010

Thanks for useful comments Uri - which will help sharpen people's minds and
bodies around the shared work for a libertarian future. On reflection I see
your point about unconscious anti-semtical inference is well made, although
I think today it is both sides of the semitic family, that of the Arabs and
the Jews that is likely to bear the brunt of any shared anti-semitic
sentiment, and Arab bankers are as far as I am aware a different kettle of
fish.

However I do understand your concerns.

About your point about "democratic centralism" I also do think you have a
point as I tried to indicate in my first post.

But, in this time I believe there is room, need even for both the central
critique/vanguarding of ideas AND the autonomous anarcho-approach, in common
cause but also repectfully critical of the limitations of the other. For me,
the creative tension between the two can be what makes it all really
successful.

Towards a revolution of autonomous, genuinely democratic, but also joined up
communities collectively with the whole earth and its people in mind!

Or as one ultimately great Jew, Jesus PBUH put it: " those that are not
against us, are with us" and I for one am not against either of the two
strands we have identified.

Respectfully

Mark

On 12 June 2010 09:55, <uri at riseup.net> wrote:

> Fiona -
>
> To clarify, it is precisely the combination of "financiers" and "pound of
> flesh" that creates the antisemitic connotation. One cannot compare the
> financiers to Shylock and then pretend that it's a racially neutral
> metaphor. The AWTW leadership may not have a conscious antisemitic
> ideology, but they are still wantonly employing an antisemitic stereotype
> *against the abstract dimension of capital*. In this they perpetuate the
> single most important trope of modern antisemitism, which is central to
> nazi and neo-nazi ideology.
>
> For a detailed explanation of this topic see here:
> http://libcom.org/library/anti-semitism-national-socialism-moishe-postone
>
> Self-styled "serous Marxists" like AWTW should really know better.
>
>
> Mark -
>
> Your attempt to brush away this issue displays ignorance and flippant
> insensitivity to historical oppression.
>
> As for AWTW, the idea that someone needs to "steward the movement" is
> horribly vanguardist and patronizing towards people. This is exactly the
> problem with all of authoritarian Marxism. Trotskyist groups in particular
> cannot be democratized because they work more like cults than political
> organizations. They avoid revealing their true identity and ideology,
> operate behind the scenes of front groups and bogus initiatives, and
> consistently sideline anyone who challenges their unilateral policies and
> their control of content and message.
>
> This is why these Assemblies are anything but autonomous spaces open to
> being shaped by the participants. They are instead a pre-designed ploy to
> funnel people into becoming AWTW footsoldiers. The idea that "concerns"
> about centralization could be "flagged" at the first assembly is like
> suggesting that someone intentionally walk into a pit-trap and then
> negotiate about the size of the ladder.
>
> Unity is not an end in itself, especially not if its on someone else's
> terms. As for "failure, with the right ideals in mind" - they already had
> their chance in 1917.
>
> Uri
>
>
> Mark Barrett wrote:
> > Uri see Fiona's comments below aswell as mine.
> >
> > As usual we cannot ignore Shakespeare, for surely it is HIS anti-semitism
> > via Shylock's words you are connecting with and then making an awfully
> big
> > assumption over!! People use words from art all the time so please don't
> > jump to such unwarranted conclusions
> >
> > Folks, A World to Win are a good bunch and their politics are
> consistently
> > good. I know their core group well, and worked with them closely and to
> my
> > satisfaction in the past (2006) and have stayed in ongoing contact and
> > mutual support ever since. We set out the need for a Peoples Assembly
> > based
> > revolution in 2006 and the present call out and sign up request is a
> > natural
> > progression from that and all the work they're been doing since. Read
> > their
> > excellent blog and website to see their politics and organisational
> skills
> > are good. They are the best people I know to help steward the revolution
> > and
> > their work also appeals to non die hard activsts which is a great sign.
> > They
> > are quite theoretical, but at the same time they get stuck in at demos.
> >
> > About your concern regarding centralisation, perhaps their org will need
> > cracking open (as we all, if we hook in, find ways to fully democratise
> > it)
> > but surely that is no reason to assume they are wrong. Rather that must
> be
> > something we need to bring to the 1st Peoples Assembly held under the
> call
> > out. So thank you for flagging it.
> >
> > From my side their commitment to "the democratisation of all spheres of
> > life" is enough and we just need to push that forward at each step to
> > ensure the real democracy / anarcho communist movement, when it actually
> > emerges from (potentially their endeavour) absolutely embodies the
> > equality
> > that must come with such sentiments. But surely there is nothing at all
> > wrong with a *relatively* democratic group getting the movement ball
> > rolling, as long as we deal with the issue of centralisation at each
> stage
> > in the process?
> >
> > Best practice will emerge in communities as long as worst practice and
> > with
> > the web Trotsky becomes far less of a possibility as are all able to keep
> > tabs on what's being said by whom on whose behalf and then deal with it.
> > Suggest people sign up and help them help us get the show on the road -
> we
> > all have to be in it to win it, so lets unite over this and see what
> > happens. For in this time of extraordinary potential, I strongly believe
> > that even failure, with the right ideals in mind will seem as a huge step
> > in
> > the right direction, and hardly catastrophic in sofar as it will show us
> > how
> > to do it perfectly the next time.
> >
> > "A Peoples Art is the Genesis of their Freedom"
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: Fiona Harrington <Fiona.Harrington at brunel.ac.uk>
> > Date: 11 June 2010 11:22
> > Subject: RE: [project2012] Re: AWTW, centralism and antisemitism
> > To: project2012 at googlegroups.com
> >
> >
> > Are you seriously insinuating that those who coined the phrase
> "Financiers
> > have already had their pound of flesh" (which is true enough) are
> > anti-semitic and thus are being deliberately offensive?
> > Why are you assuming that anybody reading that line would automatically
> > assume that it is anti-semitic? Or again why do you so readily assume
> that
> > the word "financiers" is code for Jews? Or is it the combination with the
> > "pound of flesh" mataphor, or what? I mean you would agree wouldn't you,
> > that there are financiers of every shape, colour, gender and religion in
> > the
> > world who have had their "pound of flesh" or who are in expectation of
> > reaping the 'reward' of their greed. It is of course the capitalist
> system
> > itself within which financiers are major players, that is at the back of
> > our
> > woes in any case - I am sure you would agree with that!
> >
> > Fiona
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: project2012 at googlegroups.com on behalf of uri at riseup.net
> > Sent: Fri 11/06/2010 6:51 AM
> > To: Deborah Phelan
> > Cc: Mark Barrett; project2012 at googlegroups.com;
> > campaignforrealdemocracy at lists.aktivix.org;
> > self-propelled-community-organisations at googlegroups.com;
> > buildinglocalgroups at lists.riseup.net; democracyvillage at googlemail.com;
> > election-meltdown-activists-group at googlegroups.com; climateorg
> copenhagen;
> > peopleincommon at lists.riseup.net
> > Subject: [project2012] Re: AWTW, centralism and antisemitism
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Not irrelevant, just despicable.
> >
> > Trotskyist front groups like AWTW regularly promote themselves with such
> > copycat ploys, sucking the energy out of the real movement.
> >
> > Their use of overtly antisemitic language ("Financiers have already had
> > their pound of flesh") is extremely offensive.
> >
> > Uri
> >
> >
> >
> > Deborah Phelan wrote:
> >> Am i reading this correctly? That this post is not relevant in this
> >> group?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 7:39 AM, Mark Barrett
> >> <marknbarrett at googlemail.com>wrote:
> >>
> >>> Great initiative from AWTW, please distribute widely:
> >>>
> >>> *Build People's Assemblies*
> >>> A World to Win urges communities to unite to defeat the attacks by the
> >>> Conservative-Lib Dem coalition government on public services and living
> >>> standards already under way.
> >>>
> >>> Tens of thousands of public and private sector workers will lose their
> >>> jobs
> >>> and local communities be deprived of vital services unless we come
> >>> together
> >>> to defeat the government.
> >>>
> >>> What Cameron and Clegg call the 'national interest' in reality means
> >>> doing
> >>> what's right by the bankers and speculators who are responsible for the
> >>> global crisis in the first place.
> >>>
> >>> We should reject the spending cuts altogether. Financiers have already
> >>> had
> >>> their pound of flesh, with taxpayers' bailing out the banks when they
> >>> collapsed after running up enormous debts.
> >>>
> >>> The greatest economic and financial crisis since the 1930s is the
> >>> responsibility of capitalist corporations and bankers. They have
> >>> forfeited
> >>> the right to run the world.
> >>>
> >>> Parliament won't defend us and New Labour is equally responsible for
> >>> the
> >>> disaster. So A World to Win suggests that we create a network of
> >>> People's
> >>> Assemblies to unite communities.
> >>>
> >>> People's Assemblies will represent ordinary people's interests, whether
> >>> they are young or old, in work or unemployed, in the public or private
> >>> sector, trade unionists, students, minorities and community groups
> >>> resisting
> >>> the cuts.
> >>>
> >>> The Assemblies will also look beyond a failed economic system where
> >>> profit
> >>> and speculation comes first and towards building a true democracy in
> >>> place
> >>> of the sham one we live under now.
> >>>
> >>> *Register*
> >>> Register your support for a People's Assembly in your area and together
> >>> we
> >>> can defeat the coalition and change the world.
> >>> http://www.aworldtowin.net/frontline/BuildPeoplesAssemblies.html
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -.-.- Climate Justice Action Network International Coordination List
> >>> -.-.
> >>> POST TO LIST: climate09-int at lists.riseup.net
> >>> UNSUBSCRIBE:  send a blank email to
> >>> climate09-int-unsubscribe at lists.riseup.net
> >>> LISTKEEPERS:  climate09-int-editor at lists.riseup.net
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> "You have construction workers who are idle, and they're going to be
> >> idle
> >> for twelve months, twenty-four months, thirty-six months. They're not
> >> going
> >> to be able to build anything. Let them rebuild everything. We have
> >> people
> >> coming home from wars, coming home from prisons, coming out of high
> >> school
> >> with no job prospects whatsoever. Let us connect the people who most
> >> need
> >> work with the work that most needs to be done." Van Jones
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > "We hear men speaking for us of new laws strong and sweet /Yet is there
> no
> > man speaketh as we speak in the street.”
> >
>
>
>

-- 
"We hear men speaking for us of new laws strong and sweet /Yet is there no
man speaketh as we speak in the street.”
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