[imc-uk-emergency] irc log for uk-network meeting
pault
pault at burngreave.net
Mon Oct 6 22:08:24 BST 2003
Hi All
The following is the log for the 20:00-22:00, Sunday, 05 October 2003 irc
meeting on #uk re Sheffield Meeting 18-19 OCtober 2003.
Apologies for length, you people are **so** chatty ;-)
===============================================
19:48 -!- pault changed the topic of #uk to: meeting @ 8pm [20:00]
http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Local/UkNetworkMeetings
19:49 <@ionnek> yup
19:49 <@vince> hi all
19:49 <@ionnek> how long do you all have time_
19:49 <@pault> hi
19:49 <@chrisc> um, a couple of hours?
19:49 <@ionnek> vince! compliments for autonomy peace
19:49 <@ionnek> piece.
19:49 <@vince> thanks
19:49 <@vince> :-)
19:49 <@pault> lol
19:50 <@chrisc> hi vince!
19:50 <@ionnek> ��=
19:50 <@vince> hi chris! :-)
19:50 <@ionnek> got to leave just b4 9 - been dragged to tapas bar
19:50 <@pault> tough 1
19:51 <@ionnek> hm.
19:51 <@ionnek> what needs discussing?
19:51 <@vince> hmm don't know :-)
19:51 <@vince> everything
19:52 -!- chip_scooter_away is now known as chip_scooter
19:53 <@pault> it's mr shirt
19:53 <@ionnek> like, what music are we gonna have @ party.
19:53 -!- spanner [~jirc at 81-178-243-172.dsl.pipex.com] has joined #uk
19:53 <@chip_scooter> aah, pault
19:53 <@ionnek> shirt?
19:53 <@pault> lst night's shirt was a thing of wondr
19:54 <@chip_scooter> paul's praising me 4 my sartorial elegance, i believe :o)
19:54 <@chrisc> bill had a posh frock on at my party last night...
19:54 <@chip_scooter> is there a picture?
19:54 <@chip_scooter> i'll wear that shirt again for n/w mtg social
19:54 <@pault> eek
19:54 <@ionnek> agenda point: dress code.
19:55 <@pault> hehe
19:55 <@chip_scooter> music 4 party: a bit o' salsa, reggae n ting, erm, whatever...
19:55 <@chip_scooter> ska
19:55 <@chip_scooter> housey disco
19:55 <@pault> poss breakz if trollyd do some
19:55 <@chip_scooter> bit o' punk ???
19:55 <@chip_scooter> uh-huh
19:55 <@pault> agenda point: shef logistics
19:56 <@chip_scooter> pls explain...
19:56 <@pault> & prenetwork printed material
19:57 <@chip_scooter> we need the agenda printed - and maps
19:58 <@pault> what else do we need 2 talk about & how are we gonna record it?
19:58 <@chip_scooter> ho ho - i have a picture of my shirt. are u ready...?
19:58 <@chip_scooter>
http://chris.croome.net/photos/2002/Bills_Birthday_22_June/0011_Matt_and_Bill.jpg
19:59 <@chip_scooter> from last year, innit
19:59 <@pault> want me to go through the log after & pull out relevant bits for
wiki?
19:59 <@chip_scooter> yeah, maaan
19:59 <@chip_scooter> so we start mtg in 1 min ???
20:00 <@ionnek> k
20:00 -!- Irssi: #uk: Total of 14 nicks [10 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 4 normal]
20:00 <@pault> someone say go
20:00 <@chip_scooter> i have another foto of me shirt:
http://chris.croome.net/photos/2002/Bills_Birthday_22_June/0053_Louise_and_Bill.jpg
20:01 <@chip_scooter> 3,
20:01 <@chip_scooter> 2,
20:01 <@chip_scooter> 1,
20:01 <@chip_scooter> let's start...
20:01 <@chip_scooter> pault: wot logistics ?
20:01 <@chip_scooter> are a problem ???
20:01 <@pault> no no
20:02 <@pault> just let ppl know that we've got accom for up to 70 [!] sorted
for fri & sat eves
20:02 <@chip_scooter> cool
20:02 <@pault> a mere stones throw from mthe other venues
20:02 <@chip_scooter> coolski
20:03 * ionnek has a question
20:03 <@chip_scooter> shoot
20:03 <@ionnek> do you think the "working group" / "discussion group" thing will
work?
20:03 * chip_scooter would like to ask if we are providing food - but this can
wait...
20:03 <@ionnek> does the "units for timetable" thing covers everything so far?
20:04 <@ionnek> do we need to assign times and places b4 the meeting starts?
20:04 <@chip_scooter> pls explain the work grp vs the discussion grp - sounds
interesting
20:04 <@ionnek>
http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Local/UkNetworkMeetings#I_Working_groups
20:04 <@chip_scooter> ok - just looking
20:04 <@ionnek>
http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Local/UkNetworkMeetings#II_Discussion_groups
20:05 -!- anaLdn [~jirc at ACB96094.ipt.aol.com] has joined #uk
20:05 <@chip_scooter> hola ana
20:05 <@vince> there's one problem with discussion groups as was pointed out by ana
20:05 <@vince> hi ana :-)
20:05 < anaLdn> hola!
20:05 <@chip_scooter> i think working grps & discussion groups is a cool idea
20:05 <@pault> hola
20:05 < anaLdn> discussion groups?
20:05 <@ionnek> I've looked at all the stuff that was on the twiki, and tried to
identify themes that could go into the timetalbe.
20:05 <@vince> i think they cannnot all be at the same time
20:05 <@chip_scooter> discussion grps:
http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Local/UkNetworkMeetings#I_Working_groups
20:06 <@vince> because many are important
20:06 <@ionnek> ana:
http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Local/UkNetworkMeetings#II_Discussion_groups
20:06 <@vince> and influence each other
20:06 -!- ab [~fidra at 82-41-74-204.cable.ubr10.edin.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #uk
20:06 <@ionnek> we have 4 sessions (at least) plus breaks.
20:06 <@vince> sorry i missed that
20:07 <@ionnek> so not all of these groups need to happen at the same time.
depends on what people want to do in them.
20:07 <@vince> so maybe we should do the most important and influential
discussion at the beginning
20:07 <@vince> to orient other discussions
20:07 <@ionnek> Maybe one group decides to meet again in the next time-slot.
20:07 <@pault> vince +1
20:07 <@ionnek> maybe another one dissolves after 10 minutes...
20:08 <@ionnek> vince: how would you organise the timetable?
20:08 <@vince> i think the timetable is fine
20:08 <@ionnek> but it's just a grid so far...
20:08 <@vince> you mean what discussion group at what time?
20:08 <@pault> what wld be most appropriate "important and influential
discussion at the beginning"
20:09 <@ionnek> yes - or which ones could run parallel, which ones need to be
before which other ones.
20:09 <@vince> i suppose regional autonomy is one of them :-)
20:09 <@pault> topics
20:09 <@chip_scooter> we have a list of topics haven't
20:09 <@chip_scooter> haven't we?
20:09 < anaLdn> yes
20:10 -!- anaLdn is now known as ana
20:10 <@ionnek> ...can i explain how I imagined these groups would work?
20:10 <@vince> go ahead :-)
20:10 < ana> y
20:10 * ionnek don't want to rush in - tell me when its enough
20:10 <@ionnek> we tkd in irc and many pp didn't want too many plenary sessions.
20:11 <@ionnek> on the other hand, there are lots of things we can only decide
collectively.
20:11 -!- mode/#uk [+o ana] by pault
20:11 <@ionnek> so i thought we could have a time slot in the beginning where
everybody goes to his/her favourite group.
20:11 <@ionnek> to discuss the favourite topic.
20:11 <@ionnek> expl - i go to new imc.
20:11 <@ionnek> we discuss, and work on some proposal.
20:12 <@ionnek> we identify problems and difficulties.
20:12 <@ionnek> we write it all up on a big sheet
20:12 <@ionnek> and stick it up the wall.
20:12 <@ionnek> then -break - we look at other groups sheets.
20:12 <@ionnek> at some point - plenary.
20:12 * ana raises hand
20:12 <@ionnek> we present the problems and ideas we have identified.
20:12 * vince raises hand
20:12 <@ionnek> plenary decides what to do next.
20:13 <@ionnek> this way we could discuss lots of topics in breaks and many groups,
20:13 * ab phone
20:13 * ana ionned can you type /end when you finish please?
20:13 <@ionnek> a general knowledge would have emerged by the time we have a
plenary <emd>
20:13 * chip_scooter sees two hands raised...
20:13 <@vince> ana?
20:14 <@ana> the stuff that we write on teh wall
20:14 <@ana> the wall
20:14 <@ana> i think maybe can be written before hand
20:14 <@ana> from discussions on email lists, irc... local meetings...
20:14 <@ana> <end>
20:14 -!- Maqui [shadowirc at 62.255.73.110] has joined #uk
20:14 <@ana> vince?
20:14 <@vince> the only problem i see with ionnek's proposal
20:14 <@vince> is that it will be hard to have meaningful discussions
20:15 <@vince> on many subjects as long as other ones will not be decided upon
20:15 <@vince> as they are all dependent on each other
20:15 <@vince> <end>
20:15 <@chip_scooter> me?
20:15 <@ionnek> y
20:15 <@chip_scooter> it's about making a choice
20:15 <@chip_scooter> and prioritising
20:16 <@chip_scooter> not _everyone_ will be able to discuss _everything_
20:16 * ana raises hand
20:16 <@chip_scooter> we can only do our best in the time we have
20:16 <@chip_scooter> <end>
20:16 <@vince> ana?
20:16 <@ana> but some issues
20:16 <@ana> i 'd like to be in all of them!
20:16 <@vince> :-)
20:16 <@ana> the ones i wrote in that email...
20:16 <@ana> and maybe 2 more...
20:17 <@chip_scooter>
http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Local/UkNetworkMeetings#I_Working_groups
20:17 <@ana> shall we decide which issues are for every one to attend?
20:17 <@ana> thanks chip :)
20:17 <@ana> can we decide that now, here?
20:17 <@ana> ,end>
20:17 <@vince> ionnek ok cool! :-)
20:17 <@vince> oops sorry
20:17 <@vince> :-)
20:18 <@ionnek> i think that each issue has to come up in a plenary.
20:18 <@ionnek> some shorter, some longer.
20:18 <@ionnek> but would be good to discuss them in smaller groups b4.
20:18 * vince raises hand
20:18 <@ionnek> or course anas proposal would be IDEAL!
20:18 * bunny observing like a poet
20:18 <@ionnek> to prepare and read everything in advance!
20:19 <@ionnek> but pp don't even read the twiki... <end>
20:19 <@vince> me
20:19 * ana raises hand
20:19 <@vince> should we try to write
20:19 <@vince> a collective text for each topic beforehand
20:19 <@vince> using wiki
20:19 <@vince> like bunny did for regional autonomy
20:19 * ana agrees strongly!!
20:19 * pault raises hand
20:19 * chip_scooter is guilty of not reading the wiki... :o(
20:19 <@vince> (i wrote it in a personal way) but it's better as collective text
20:19 <@vince> <end>
20:20 <@ana> me
20:20 <@pault> me
20:20 <@pault> sorry
20:20 <@bunny> I think it has a long way to go before it becomes colective
20:20 <@bunny> but I am glad you approve of my start
20:20 <@vince> ana?
20:20 <@ana> bunny how about respecting hands??? i'll be short
20:20 <@bunny> after all people can see your original in diffs
20:20 <@bunny> and that is waht email list are for
20:20 <@ana> bunny this is getting a bit frustrating
20:20 <@ana> shall i just shoot?
20:20 <@bunny> more threaded peronsol points
20:21 <@chip_scooter> bunny: pls take a turn :o)
20:21 <@ana> i suggest, from vince's proposal
20:21 <@ana> get that text into photocopies
20:21 <@ana> and give them at the start!
20:21 -!- zcat [~chatzilla at 81.2.110.155] has joined #uk
20:21 * vince agrees
20:21 <@ana> when every one comes in to the meeting
20:21 <@ana> and no one is allowed until they read it|!!!
20:22 <@ana> he he : ) <end>
20:22 <@pault> me
20:22 <@ana> pault
20:22 <@pault> i've taken the week off work b4 meeting
20:22 <@pault> & i'm willing 2 put sdome time into preping printed stuff 4 meeting
20:23 <@pault> i think vince's wiki
20:23 <@pault> with bunny's coireections have made me think much more
20:23 <@pault> could work for other topics too
20:23 <@pault> [end/
20:23 <@chip_scooter> bunny?
20:24 * vince raises hand
20:24 <@bunny> chip_scooter: what are you asking me
20:24 <@vince> if you want to say something
20:24 <@bunny> I give way to vince but can I come i later on other issues links
20:24 <@vince> ok
20:24 <@vince> so should we split the important topics between ppl who have time
20:25 <@vince> so that they start writing some osrt of wiki on it? <end>
20:25 * bunny hand up
20:25 <@vince> bunny
20:26 * ionnek raises hand
20:26 <@bunny> ok I am with idea of thrashing out option
20:26 <@bunny> s and issues to circulate before
20:26 <@bunny> but my question is
20:26 <@bunny> what about mandates from our groups
20:27 <@bunny> should we have local meeting and get dicussions on these
20:27 * ana not too enthusiastic about this
20:27 <@bunny> the thing is with our scotland group dominant feeling is not
wishing to engage much with uk level decisions
20:28 <@bunny> and there mandate may be to ask me ab to cause a little troubles
as poss.
20:28 <@bunny> end for now
20:28 <@vince> ionnek6
20:28 * ab still on phone
20:28 <@ionnek> must leave in a mo. final input: there is new-imc stuff linked
from the network twiki. for me it's very important to have time to actually get
something done during the meeting, not just big plenary debates. also, we talked
a lot about workshops - who is going to offer workshops? will i get a chance to
pop out of the meeting and get a linux intro?
20:28 -!- zcat [~chatzilla at 81.2.110.155] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.8.25
[Mozilla rv:1.4a/20030401]]
20:28 * ana sorry but didn't understand a word of second bunny's phrase
20:29 * ionnek ignoring the handsup
20:29 <@ionnek> bye all - have a good meeting :-)
20:29 <@vince> ciao :-)
20:29 <@pault> bye
20:29 < spanner> bye ionnek
20:29 <@chip_scooter> bye
20:29 <@ana> bye ionnek wish you stayed more
20:29 <@bunny> I am happy to clarify after any other response, I will wait till
other reponded
20:30 <@pault> no hands up
20:30 <@vince> can you clarify bunny?
20:30 <@vince> (no hands up...)
20:30 -!- ana [~jirc at ACB96094.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20:30 * chip_scooter thinks bunny should clarify now
20:31 -!- ana [~jirc at ACB96094.ipt.aol.com] has joined #uk
20:31 <@vince> bunny?
20:31 <@bunny> ok most people who feel part of indymedia scotland
20:31 * pault raises hand
20:31 * ana raises hand
20:31 < ana> (got disconnected ararrrggh)
20:32 <@bunny> do not have an option on much of the issues up0 for debate I guess
20:32 <@bunny> they are just happy to see the sub page progress
20:32 <@bunny> if we went for a mandate from our group on issues
20:33 * chip_scooter sees clock ticking...
20:33 <@bunny> it would probable be best represented by me and ab playing less
of a role in debate than we might wish as indioviduals
20:34 <@bunny> we have consided abstaning from autonomy debate to reflect this..
20:34 <@bunny> despite me and ab having strong views
20:34 <@bunny> due to our engagement with IMCUK
20:34 * vince raises hand
20:35 <@bunny> will there be votes, block votes or consenues
20:35 <@bunny> or just deadlock
20:35 <@bunny> I end for now
20:35 <@vince> pault?
20:35 <@pault> practical stuff i'm afraid. chip_scooter mentioned food, which
sorta needs some kinda number estimation. how many do ya think we might end up
with from out of town? [end]
20:35 < ana> me
20:35 < ana> 3 points:
20:35 < ana> people: last meeting, lancaster, about.. 70 people?
20:35 < ana> i'd expect more on this one...
20:35 < ana> about 10 from london
20:36 < ana> 2: workshops
20:36 < ana> i'm not especially prepared to give a workshop in sheffield
20:36 < ana> i've done a few trainings already
20:36 < ana> i personally expected...
20:36 < ana> a full on meeting,
20:36 < ana> full of discussions that we need to make
20:36 < ana> that we needed to make as soon as possible after moving to mir
20:37 < ana> that was 3 monts ago
20:37 < ana> but we couldn't, because...
20:37 < ana> only 3 people knew about mir
20:37 < ana> and that is why we waited for 3 monts
20:37 < ana> so now i personally feel the urge to make all those decisions
20:37 < ana> between people who are fully aware of the issues
20:37 < ana> and have worked with mir this time
20:38 < ana> so, havinga workshop on how to use mir...
20:38 < ana> makes little sense to me
20:38 < ana> i feel like telling people...
20:38 < ana> sort yourself out, mate
20:38 < ana> i've posted trainings in lists,
20:38 < ana> i've trained ppl on irc
20:38 < ana> but that's only my strong opinion
20:38 < ana> 3. about bunny:
20:38 * spanner raises hand
20:39 < ana> bunny i find difficult to understand your and ulla's possition
about uk-scotland
20:39 < ana> you both have done such an amazing job with uk indy, mates
20:39 < ana> dsei would not have been so good reported without ulla
20:39 < ana> and you are on with techie issues too
20:39 * ab still onphone
20:40 < ana> so, why this indecision about your involvement with uk?
20:40 < ana> you are more part of the site than many people in london
20:40 -!- spanner [~jirc at 81-178-243-172.dsl.pipex.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20:40 < ana> i feel trembling every time you say things like that...
20:41 < ana> c'mon mate, london is not a government, is a city where many of us
need to live despite ourselves
20:41 < ana> ,end>
20:41 <@vince> me
20:41 <@vince> 3 short points
20:41 <@vince> first, 4-5 people from oxford i expect
20:41 <@vince> 2) i think we should be more concrete in this discussion:
20:41 <@vince> decide who writes which wiki if we agree that wikis should be written
20:41 <@vince> decide who's doing what workshops
20:41 <@vince> etc.
20:41 <@vince> so aht something is done after this meeting
20:42 <@vince> 3)
20:42 -!- spanner [~jirc at 81-178-243-172.dsl.pipex.com] has joined #uk
20:42 <@vince> to bunny
20:42 * ab raises hand off phone finally
20:42 <@vince> i think you should try to
20:42 <@vince> get scotland people feeling part of a network
20:42 <@vince> instead of doing the opposite
20:42 <@vince> discuss about these issues, explain
20:42 <@vince> why they are as important to the UK netowk<
20:42 <@vince> as anyone else
20:42 <@vince> that *they* are the network
20:42 <@vince> end>
20:43 * spanner apologises for disconnect and raises hand again
20:43 <@vince> spanne?
20:43 < ab> hey haven't I been first?
20:43 < spanner> Thx. Before I got dumped out, ana made a valid point about
training
20:43 <@vince> hmm he did before a long time ago... :-)
20:43 < spanner> sorry, go ahead ab
20:43 < ab> oh sorry just didn't see you have been on here before
20:43 <@chip_scooter> remembers that span got disconnected...
20:44 <@vince> spanner?
20:44 < spanner> thx. Ana made a good point that mir training has been around a
lot on irc etc.
20:44 < spanner> Perhaps we should ask attendees
20:44 < spanner> what they need training on
20:44 * vince agrees
20:44 < spanner> and weed out the good requests from the bad
20:45 < spanner> this could be via a shotgun email to all attendees (if known)
20:45 < spanner> or via an invite to a quick irc
20:45 < spanner> to deal with workshop topics
20:45 < spanner> end i think :-)
20:45 <@vince> ab?
20:46 * Maqui raises hand
20:46 < ab> okay, I haven't really read much of the discussion before as have
been on phone
20:46 < ab> but wanted to chip in that I feel at the moment quite burnt outin
regards to imc-webstuff
20:46 < ab> I really looked forward to the imc meeting more on a social level
20:46 <@chip_scooter> :o)
20:47 < ab> of engagning and meeting people I struggle with
20:47 < ab> as in socila change struggle
20:47 < ab> social
20:47 * ana raises hand
20:47 < ab> of course not as in fight each other
20:47 < ab> but now it seems so much focussing around one issue and disagreement
20:48 < ab> which was based more on a misunderstanding
20:48 < ab> rather than the insult it got perceived as
20:49 * vince doesn't really understand
20:49 < ab> and I really don't want to go to Sheffield to have another big
disagreement and debate
20:49 < ab> which seems to be more dividing than uniting
20:49 * ana can i ask ppl to write in short sentences? waiting gets boring...
20:49 * Maqui asks ab to clarify which issue and disagreement
20:49 < ab> the whole autonomy thing
20:49 * vince agrees with Maqui but disagrees with ab :-)
20:50 < ab> seems to me like vince taking revenge on the one incident
20:50 * vince really disagrees... :-)
20:50 < ab> and I just don't want to come
20:50 < ab> anymore
20:50 * vince raises hand
20:50 * ana would *love* to see ab in sheffield!!
20:50 < ab> because I fear what is
20:50 < ab> might come out there with the whole autonomy debatte
20:51 * vince would also love to see ab! :-)
20:51 < ab> and with the timepressure
20:51 < ab> sorry
20:51 * chip_scooter sees three hands up...
20:51 * pault has the hand order @ Maqui, ana, vince
20:51 < ab> me end
20:51 <@vince> MAqui?
20:51 < ana> maqui
20:51 < Maqui> ok
20:51 < Maqui> im a bit lost with all ab just said
20:51 < Maqui> dunno if it refers to vince's autonomy text or what
20:52 < ab> yes
20:52 < Maqui> i apologis coz i havent read it ... to much hangover today :))
20:52 * chrisc me2
20:52 < Maqui> but my point was another
20:52 < Maqui> basically refering to workshops
20:52 < Maqui> and i agree with ana
20:52 * pault raises hand
20:52 < Maqui> i don't think there will be much time for workshops
20:53 < Maqui> more important issues need to be discussed and agreed upon
20:53 * spanner raises hand
20:53 < Maqui> and i would like people talk and discuss rather than 'getting
trained'
20:53 < Maqui> so i would ask people what training do they need
20:53 < Maqui> and basically just sort other times and spaces (
20:54 < Maqui> (both physical or virtual) for trainings
20:54 < Maqui> and btw maqui would also love to see ab and bunny in sheffild :)
20:54 < Maqui> <end>
20:54 < ana> me
20:54 * chip_scooter sees 4 hands up...
20:54 < ana> cant agree more with maqui
20:54 < ana> about the social stuff, ab:
20:55 < ana> there will be times for both
20:55 < ana> just like in aktivix... or any other network meeting we've had
20:55 < ana> i just don't see
20:55 < ana> just, or mainly,\
20:55 < ana> a social gathering in sheffield
20:55 < ana> ppl don't travel long distances to socialise, i can't afford it
20:55 < ana> of course there will be disagreements
20:56 < ana> of course there will be heated debates
20:56 < ana> (i'll try my best not to be nasty this time ;-))
20:56 < ana> but we 'need' to make decisions
20:56 < ana> anyhow i agree with vince
20:56 < ana> that this meeting is not about convincing some one to come
20:56 * vince is surprised! :-):-)
20:57 < ana> (about me trying not to be nasty? )
20:57 < ana> he he
20:57 < ana> this meeting is about organising the meeting in sheff.
20:57 < ana> i think we should try & divide tasks
20:57 * pault unraises hand
20:57 < ana> and the time table if htere is not one
20:57 < ana> btw i'd like to do the introduction about mir
20:58 < ana> i've been thinking about it most of my time.. when i 've been ill...
20:58 < ana> i can prepare some documentation, actually i've prepared some
20:58 < ana> then i can email is to the twiki-addicts
20:58 < ana> <end>
20:58 <@vince> me
20:58 <@vince> first i agree with Maqui and ana
20:58 <@vince> 2) i want to say
20:59 <@vince> clearly tha no one is angry or insulted or offended or whatever
in oxford
20:59 <@vince> i'm not trying to take any revenge
20:59 <@vince> i always take the thread example only
20:59 <@vince> because it is the only example that happened so far
20:59 <@vince> but that is not the point of the regional autonomy stuff
20:59 <@vince> i think this debate is very important
20:59 <@vince> on a theoretical level and organisational level
21:00 * ana agree
21:00 <@vince> as we are presently defining what the United Kollektvies will be
for the following uyears
21:00 <@vince> and we have to look at the possibilities
21:00 <@vince> and have discussions before taking important decisions like this
21:00 <@vince> that will affect all the regional collectives for a while
21:00 <@vince> <end>
21:00 * bunny hand up
21:01 * pault points out it 21:00
21:01 <@pault> spanner?
21:01 < spanner> ok
21:01 < spanner> I'm persuaded by maqui and ana
21:01 < spanner> Shall we schedule a slot to discuss training then?
21:01 * ana ????
21:01 < spanner> And add this as a proposal on twiki?
21:01 < spanner> end
21:02 * ana not understand nothing
21:02 < spanner> shall I clarify?
21:02 * ana raises hand
21:02 <@vince> yup
21:02 < ana> please
21:02 <@pault> y
21:02 < spanner> OK
21:02 * chip_scooter raises hand
21:02 < spanner> Ana said earlier that there was already training on mir etc.
21:02 < spanner> I replied that we should ask what training ppl wanted
21:03 < spanner> ana and maqui (iirc) then siad that there wasnt much time
21:03 < spanner> so how about instead we schedule slot to talk about what
training needed
21:03 < spanner> for delivery later
21:03 < spanner> end
21:03 * Maqui agrees with spanner
21:03 * ana sees no need for that...
21:03 <@vince> next?
21:03 < Maqui> why
21:04 < Maqui> opps sorry
21:04 * spanner sees training proposed on twiki
21:04 <@pault> ana?
21:04 < ana> i think pault raised hand first
21:04 <@vince> he unraised it
21:04 <@vince> it hink
21:04 * pault unraised some time ago
21:04 < ana> then bunny?
21:04 <@pault> oops
21:04 <@pault> bunny?
21:04 <@bunny> The thing I want clarified was is it decided that consenus is
reached by those present with no formal regard for those not at this meeting. I
started to set up example to paste here but best for email, the thing I wanted
tomtake from this meeting is should it be directed to groups to have a meeting
in run up to network meeting and what they should come up with
21:05 <@bunny> should an groups be warned if they don't engage decison may be
taken that affect there page
21:05 * vince agrees
21:05 < ana> eehh??
21:05 * vince i think...
21:05 <@bunny> eg manchester has not done much with it's page recently so I
guess it would not do much to maintain a newsirie of it's
21:05 <@bunny> own
21:06 < ana> (sorry english not me first language, need corrct grammar...)
21:06 <@bunny> can we ever scape a page
21:06 <@bunny> can we ever oblige collectives to engage
21:06 * ana sorry no i understand
21:06 <@bunny> I note not requirement for groups to report to IMCUK
21:06 <@bunny> in formal way
21:07 * vince points that it's the new imc process that hasn't been done so far
21:07 <@bunny> oops that was can aregional page ever be scroped?
21:07 <@bunny> oop scraped
21:07 <@bunny> fucke
21:07 <@vince> :-)
21:07 < ana> lol
21:07 <@bunny> my toping is going down hill so I will stop
21:07 <@bunny> but it would be good to sort this out
21:08 < ana> dn't worry :-)
21:08 <@bunny> as time running out
21:08 -!- ben [~ben at adsl210.13.cyb.it] has joined #uk
21:08 <@bunny> to place any requiremnets or warning to groups
21:08 < ben> hello all
21:08 <@bunny> hello ben
21:08 <@vince> hi ben
21:08 < ana> hello
21:08 < spanner> hi
21:08 <@bunny> we are having a meeting
21:08 < Maqui> hi
21:08 < ben> hiya, hows it going?
21:08 <@bunny> and we are using a hands up method to
21:08 <@bunny> work out who goes
21:09 <@bunny> but as you just arrived
21:09 < ben> oh, not a meeting, i'd better shut up. had too many meetings this week
21:09 <@bunny> you may want to introduce yourself
21:09 <@pault> ana?
21:09 <@bunny> end
21:09 < ana> me
21:09 < ana> about a slot for trainings?
21:09 < ben> OK. INtro: Ben - real2reel, lifecycles, wesycountry IMC, currently
in Roma for sample image workshop
21:10 < ana> ok with asking ppl what training they need
21:10 * bunny wants to clarify line of waht I said
21:10 < ana> i suggest we do this on any plenary
21:10 < ana> ok bunny go on
21:10 * spanner agrees with ana
21:10 < ana> i'll continue
21:11 < ana> right after you
21:11 * pault notes chip_scooter after ana
21:11 <@bunny> when I said 'those present' and 'meeting'at 21:04 I emant
sheffiled meeting
21:12 < ana> may i go on?
21:12 < ana> ok...
21:12 <@bunny> anyway I may expand in email
21:12 <@bunny> end for now
21:12 < ana> then we ask those who need training where they live
21:13 < ana> then the person who can train them raises their hand and says 'talk
to me at the end of this plennary'\
21:13 < ana> and they arrange *another* place to train
21:13 < ana> another matter will be those in the middle of nowhere
21:13 < ana> as i said, i've done trainings on irc
21:13 < ana> and there is documentation
21:13 < ana> but most importantly, i propose...
21:13 * spanner raises hand
21:14 < ana> that we say on the *list*(
21:14 < ana> that probably there will be no training at sheffield
21:14 < ana> that people are expected to get there with some grasp in admin...
21:14 * Maqui hand up
21:14 < ana> about bunny:
21:14 < ana> local pages to be scrapped?
21:15 < ana> i think that belongs to the new uk imc process
21:15 < ana> also i ask-propose-demand
21:15 < ana> that what we've been calling new imc process
21:15 < ana> we call new uk imc process
21:15 < ana> becasue new imc process is what is done globally
21:15 < ana> and which only lancaster & scotland have done succesffully i believe
21:16 < ana> london did but unsuccessfully ;-)
21:16 < ana> <end>
21:16 < ana> chip_scooter?
21:16 <@chip_scooter> 1) i agree with maqui & ana that training's not as
important _on-the-day_ as face-to-face discussion but provision might have to be
made to train some people - we have good facilities for that :o) 2) i believe
that there's a whole socio-political 'hinterland' to england-scotland relations
& how that affects indymedia that the newbies aren't aware of - this should be
explained later somehow...phew <end>
21:16 <@chip_scooter> ta
21:17 < ana> lol
21:17 <@chip_scooter> :o)
21:17 < ana> spanner?
21:17 < spanner> ok
21:17 < spanner> ana makes good points about training
21:17 < spanner> but rather than outline now a process for how to book
face-to-face training at Sheff
21:18 < spanner> I suggest we instead agree to talk about how training can be
delivered better
21:18 < spanner> if our documentation is not good enough for mere mortals
21:18 < spanner> then some might need to be re-written
21:18 < spanner> only way to know is to ask those mere mortals
21:18 -!- mode/#uk [+o ana] by pault
21:18 < spanner> or watch body language etc during discussion
21:18 < spanner> cant do that on email or irc :-)
21:19 < spanner> there are other ways than face to face
21:19 < spanner> e.g. VNC
21:19 < spanner> http://www.realvnc.com/
21:19 < spanner> and other free whiteboarding tools
21:19 * ana raises hand
21:19 < spanner> so that IMCers in london/oxford/montreal/wherever
21:19 < spanner> might train people in other timezones/latitudes
21:20 < spanner> or just a part of the uk that the trainer would have difficulty
getting to
21:20 < spanner> to sum, i think it should be a forum for listening to what is
needed by volunteers
21:20 < spanner> and talking about possible solutions for delivering better
training and docs
21:20 < spanner> end
21:20 <@ana> maqui
21:20 < Maqui> just a quick point
21:21 < Maqui> i think we are making too much of an issue about training
21:21 < Maqui> i mean,
21:21 < Maqui> most volunteers to the uk imc(s) only need and want to know about
admin
21:21 < Maqui> not about coding mir or whatever else goes behing these nice
admin forms
21:21 * spanner raises hand
21:22 < Maqui> so to be able to just administer the wite
21:22 * ana good good point
21:22 < Maqui> (newswire cleaning, feaures, photos publishing, etc...)
21:22 < Maqui> it's not really that much of an issue i think
21:22 < Maqui> it can be learned just by doing it and fucking it up :)
21:22 * chip_scooter agrees
21:22 < Maqui> so maybe a half way solution woudl be tp have a laptop and projector
21:23 < Maqui> in the discussions and plenary (if poss)
21:23 < Maqui> in which people can graphically illustrate what they mean when
they say tdo"this" or "that"
21:23 < Maqui> am i making sense
21:23 < Maqui> <en>
21:23 < Maqui> <d> :)
21:24 <@ana> I also need, if ppl agree that i do some presentation, sth to
write on in big
21:24 <@ana> good point chip makes: we need to think of the newbies too
21:24 * spanner will brb, have to tuck my son into bed...
21:25 * chip_scooter looks thru stationery catalogue for flipcharts...
21:25 <@ana> anyhow, about mir documentation for mere admins...
21:25 <@ana> i've done some, i'm only waiting for some checking
21:25 * Maqui can liberate stationary from the tirany of a shop shelf :)
21:25 <@ana> but can send my documentation on email to you log right after this
meeting
21:26 <@ana> so you can check for incorrections
21:26 <@ana> then this can be sent to the local lists
21:26 <@ana> well.. when sarai is up,
21:27 * Maqui asks if there's an agenda for this meeting and if so to move
along please
21:27 -!- ana [~jirc at ACB96094.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Read error: Connection
reset by peer]
21:27 * chip_scooter asks are any hands up ???
21:28 <@pault> spanner?
21:28 -!- ben [~ben at adsl210.13.cyb.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by
peer]
21:28 <@pault> still being dad
21:28 * Maqui hand then
21:28 * spanner is back now :-)
21:28 < spanner> ok?
21:28 < spanner> ok
21:28 < spanner> .
21:29 <@pault> u had ur hand up spanner
21:29 < spanner> i still think that we should ask ppl what training is needed,
rather than decide for them what they ought to be capable of
21:29 < spanner> i hear a lot of complaints on oxford imc list
21:29 < spanner> that they can't manage
21:29 < spanner> and i see few people doing admin the past month or two
21:30 < spanner> that to me sound like the docs/training are insufficient right now
21:30 < spanner> most ppl are too afraid to have a go and fuck it up
21:30 < spanner> they dont want to be an admin burden on "experts"
21:30 < spanner> i think we should respect that
21:30 < spanner> and that we should ask ppl what they want
21:30 < spanner> end
21:30 * vince agrees with spanner
21:31 <@pault> Maqui?
21:31 < Maqui> me? ok
21:31 < Maqui> i'd like to move on from the training issu
21:31 < Maqui> i agree with spanner though that we should ask ppl what training
is needed
21:32 < Maqui> but i thought we had agreed on that already
21:32 < Maqui> so i ask: what are the other points in the agenda?
21:32 < Maqui> what about open publishing models
21:33 < Maqui> imc-uk
21:33 < Maqui> editorial 'policies'
21:33 < Maqui> etc...
21:33 <@pault> me?
21:33 < Maqui> ok ypu
21:33 < Maqui> you
21:33 <@pault> we were talking earlier about the working grp
21:33 <@pault> penary balance thing
21:34 <@pault> & we got onto training
21:34 <@pault> from there
21:34 <@pault> ionnek said that we should be lloking at what was most imp
21:34 <@pault> for us toio look at early in w/end
21:35 <@pault> i think the question from Maqui comes from there
21:35 <@pault> the propsal was to perhaps set up wikis etc to start 2 have
discussion
21:35 <@pault> [end]
21:36 < Maqui> who's next?
21:37 * vince raises hand
21:37 < Maqui> go
21:37 <@vince> i haven't followed all of the discussion, but
21:37 <@vince> i think as pault said if the proposal is to set up wikis
21:38 <@vince> we should decide who's doing what
21:38 <@vince> <end>
21:38 * Maqui hand
21:38 <@pault> go
21:39 < Maqui> i cant help much with wikis as i can be online all the time
(still dial up connection :-0
21:39 < Maqui> so in that sense im so much a 'wikki man"
21:39 * vince points out that you can write a text on your computer and copy
and paste it to a wiki
21:39 < Maqui> but what i meant before is if there was any idea or plan
21:40 * pault raises hand
21:40 < Maqui> on how to conduct the siscussions on open postin and editorial
guidelines
21:40 < Maqui> as for me these are crucial issues
21:40 -!- ana [~jirc at ACBBEF55.ipt.aol.com] has joined #uk
21:40 < ana> got kicked out
21:40 < Maqui> the new united killektives are still mainly borrowing
21:41 * ana raises hand
21:41 < Maqui> from what was written long time ago, by a group of mates that
came (more or less) from the same environments
21:41 < Maqui> so .. i dont have answers but i like to know if anythiong about
this has been planned
21:41 < Maqui> <end>
21:41 * vince agrees very much with Maqui
21:42 * Maqui sees vince point about witing a text on a computer :)
21:42 <@vince> pault?
21:42 * chip_scooter thinks ana shld use a diff ISP ;o)
21:43 <@pault> can i drop one in the order just doing sommat
21:43 <@pault> ana next
21:43 < ana> pault is trying to put on a private chat the conversation i missed...
21:43 < ana> ok i wanted to say what i was saying when i got kicked out
21:43 < ana> i was trying to propose that, if we can't sort it out ourselves here,
21:44 < ana> then ask in the emergency list
21:44 < ana> who would be happy to prepare some documentation
21:44 < ana> in each issue from the twiki
21:44 < ana> so people can read about it before the meeting,
21:44 < ana> either on email, twiki...
21:44 < ana> or on paper as they enter the plenary room in sheffield
21:45 < ana> i said i've done hte documentation on mir
21:45 < ana> some very basic training on hiding stuff, putting features up
21:45 < ana> and putting a picture that you have in your computer
21:45 < ana> so i can either send it to the list,
21:45 < ana> or send it to you all present here so you can check in case
21:45 < ana> i got anything wrong
21:46 < ana> then some twiki addict can put on the twiki
21:46 < ana> whatever, just to say that i can do 'that'
21:46 < ana> ,end>
21:46 * vince says that he can put it on a wiki if ana sends him the stuff
21:47 * ana thanks, i was beginning to think i got disconnected again
21:48 <@pault> no hands raised
21:48 <@vince> so who's next?
21:48 <@vince> :-)
21:49 <@vince> well the autonomy wiki is done
21:49 <@vince> ana wrote the training wiki
21:49 <@vince> who wants to write something about open publishing?
21:49 <@vince> :-)
21:49 <@pault> mmmm don't feel i could do it justice
21:49 * chrisc hmmm
21:50 < Maqui> it already written in the long ionneks twiki no?
21:50 <@vince> is it? maybe
21:50 <@vince> then someone should just summarize it
21:50 < Maqui> she pionts out the different models
21:50 <@vince> i think anyway it's a collective work
21:50 <@vince> so someone starts it
21:50 <@vince> and others help, like bunny did in the autonomy wiki
21:50 * ana don't think open publishing needs much discussion
21:51 < ana> i can do the two models of open publishing
21:51 <@vince> ok, well editorial guidelines then?
21:51 <@vince> (as I said you can all send me the stuff and i'll put it on a
wiki if you're not wiki addict :-)
21:51 < ana> what about them?
21:51 <@vince> (as i am wiki addict... :-)
21:52 < ana> sorry lost the page... can some on put url again please?
21:52 <@vince> which page?%
21:52 < ana> the twiki page with the topics
21:52 <@vince> http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Local/UkNetworkMeetings
21:52 < ana> thanks
21:52 <@vince> topics:
21:52 <@vince> autonomy
21:53 <@vince> editorial guidelines
21:53 <@vince> new-imc process
21:53 <@vince> communication and concensus
21:53 <@vince> global imc network
21:53 <@vince> <end>
21:53 <@vince> oepn publishing also sorry
21:53 < ana> editorial guidelines as editorial policy?
21:54 <@vince> yep i suppose so
21:54 < ana> don't see much of a point in discussing this in sheffield...
21:54 < ana> sorry if i sound heretic or sth...
21:54 * vince disagrees
21:54 <@vince> as Maqui pointed out
21:54 <@vince> (I think)
21:55 <@vince> we just copied the editorial process of IMc UK
21:55 <@chrisc> doesn't editorial guidelines cover moderation?
21:55 <@vince> yep also i suppose
21:55 < ana> ah chrisc i was thinking about you
21:55 <@vince> moderation, how features are written,
21:55 < ana> do you want to prepare somethin about slash dot?
21:55 <@vince> 24 hours rule
21:55 * chrisc hungover and without net connection at new home...
21:56 < ana> ok vince i agree now
21:56 <@chrisc> ana: sure, i could try to explain /. moderation...
21:56 < ana> i just wouldn't call that editorial guideline...
21:56 < ana> ok chrisc :) in your own time
21:56 <@vince> (soory...:-)
21:56 <@chrisc> perhaps it should be editorial / moderation?
21:56 < ana> no...
21:56 < ana> editorial guidelines - in my understanding
21:56 <@vince> it's explain anyway below the imc-uk editorial title
21:57 < ana> is what is done with the 'wire'
21:57 < ana> what to hide, why
21:57 < ana> the middle column and how to manage it is another thing... in my
opinion...
21:57 < ana> in any case, a completely separate issue
21:58 < ana> (i'd like to clarify this in an intro as well...)
21:58 * Maqui agrees with ana
21:58 < ana> ok if no one else does...
21:58 <@vince> do you want to write something about this?
21:58 <@vince> :-)
21:58 * spanner agrees with ana
21:58 < ana> i can explain how the feature writing used to work like with active...
21:59 * pault wonders how long we're going 2 continue [nearly 22:00]
21:59 * vince thinks it'd be good
21:59 < ana> and how "i" still do it now
21:59 <@vince> then we can all add proposals, or ideas
21:59 < ana> he he he - and why i think we shouldn't change!!!
21:59 <@vince> :-)
21:59 < Maqui> ok good plan
21:59 < ana> ;-)
21:59 < Maqui> but does everything need to be written
21:59 < ana> ok some one send me the logs of this after this...
21:59 <@vince> send your intro to me when you'Re finished, i'll create the wiki
22:00 < Maqui> do we need so many docs for the meetingg
22:00 < ana> maqui: yes
22:00 * vince vince agrees with ana
22:00 < Maqui> well not sure i can help mmuch then before the tmeeting
22:00 * ana raises hand...
22:00 * pault raises hand
22:00 < Maqui> it's quite near
22:00 * spanner has to go now, sorry
22:00 < ana> 1. i need logs with this... so i can remember what i have comitted
myself to do
22:00 <@chip_scooter> bye
22:00 <@vince> ciao spanner :-)
22:00 < Maqui> and i thingk most issues should be more or less clear to most
people attending the meeting no?
22:00 <@pault> bye spanner thnx
22:01 < spanner> bye
22:01 -!- spanner [~jirc at 81-178-243-172.dsl.pipex.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
22:01 < ana> bye spanner... thanks
22:01 < ana> too late
22:01 < Maqui> by spanner
22:01 < ana> maqui: i respond
22:01 * vince raises hand
22:01 < ana> i'd like to make *sure*
22:01 < Maqui> bu wait:
22:01 * chip_scooter watching derren brown...
22:01 < Maqui> i also have to go soon
22:01 < ana> that people *are* more or less clear
22:01 < Maqui> ana go please
22:01 < ana> that is why i want things in writing so they can read in sheff.
22:01 < ana> before the meeting
22:02 * ab ab-away
22:02 < ana> before they ask questions that frustrate me
22:02 < ana> ,end>
22:02 <@vince> pault?
22:02 -!- ab is now known as ab-away
22:02 < ana> i'd like to listen to maqui if he has to goo....
22:02 <@vince> oops sorry
22:02 * pault gives way 2 Maqui
22:03 < Maqui> no you go sorry
22:03 < ana> i'm finished
22:03 <@vince> pault?
22:03 < ana> pault then?
22:03 <@pault> i'm more than happy to be conduit 4 documentation
22:03 <@pault> doc productions my thing &
22:03 < Maqui> :) yesss !!
22:03 <@vince> :-):-)
22:03 <@pault> it sound like we're all gonna have some reading 2 do
22:04 * chip_scooter thinks that sw from imc-sheff will do some documentacion
22:04 <@pault> lodsa pdfs ok 4 folks [end]
22:04 <@vince> me?
22:04 < Maqui> yup
22:04 <@vince> i just wanted to add very briefly
22:04 <@vince> to ana's comments that these texts an docs
22:04 <@vince> will form a very interesting documentation on organisational
processes
22:04 <@vince> nad are very interesting in themselves
22:04 <@vince> not just for sheffield
22:05 <@vince> <end> :-)
22:05 < Maqui> very true ... agree that thy're good documentation
22:05 < Maqui> just take lots of time to do them
22:06 < Maqui> but if people is prepared to start them up
22:06 < Maqui> then its ok and ill do my best to contribute
22:06 < Maqui> in twicki or otherwise :)
22:06 < Maqui> <.end>
22:06 * ana raises hand
22:06 <@vince> ana?
22:06 < ana> are we ok with a cc list to work on this?
22:07 < ana> or do we think it is too secretive?
22:07 < ana> i'd like to share my documents with you lot before sending them to
a public list
22:07 < ana> among other things, because of too much filling ppl's inboxes
22:07 * vince agrees
22:07 < ana> we can invite them to this cc list if they want to collaborate
22:07 < ana> with what
22:08 <@vince> filling inboxes
22:08 < ana> with a cc list or with working on private?
22:08 < ana> meant public
22:08 < ana> so we start a cc list?
22:08 <@vince> i actually think wikis are perfect
22:08 <@vince> bu i understand the problem
22:08 <@vince> so a cc list is fine to me
22:08 < ana> vince i love you but i hate some of your proposals...
22:08 <@vince> :-)
22:08 < ana> ;-)
22:09 < Maqui> ok .. sorry i interrupt but i have to go
22:09 <@vince> cool, should we stop anyway?
22:09 <@vince> is there anyone else to discuss?
22:09 <@chrisc> cya Maqui
22:09 <@vince> anything sorry
22:09 < ana> can we do a round to see who was here?
22:09 <@pault> 2 hours is enuf mithinks
22:09 <@chip_scooter> i woz 'ere
22:09 -!- Irssi: #uk: Total of 16 nicks [10 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 6 normal]
22:09 <@vince> me too
22:09 <@pault> me
22:10 < ana> thanks...
22:10 < Maqui> me
22:10 <@pault> & ionnek earlier
22:10 <@pault> & spanner
22:10 <@vince> ab
22:10 < ana> chrisc?
22:10 < ana> bunny
22:10 < Maqui> do we meet again next sunday here?
22:10 <@pault> +1
22:10 <@vince> ok
22:10 * chip_scooter wonders how chris is connecting to irc ??? ;o)
22:10 < ana> yes i'd say yes...
22:10 <@chrisc> ana: what?
22:10 * ana he went out to the park and found a wireless connection
22:11 <@chrisc> nope i'm at bills house
22:11 <@chip_scooter> lol
22:11 <@pault> lol
22:11 < ana> lol
22:11 < ana> very loud lol
22:11 < Maqui> ok well done everyone ... i'm .... and al do my thicki homework
tomorrow ... promised
22:11 < Maqui> can't wait! :))
22:11 <@chip_scooter> he's been so quiet i didn't notice him sitting on me couch...
22:11 < ana> chrisc, you have been included in a cc list to do all the documentation
22:11 < Maqui> ciao
22:11 < ana> on your own
22:11 < ana> this is consensus
22:11 <@chip_scooter> ciao
22:11 <@vince> :-):-)
22:12 <@vince> ciao
22:12 < ana> and you are *not* going to block, it, eh?
22:12 < ana> ciao maqui
22:12 < ana> (chris: joking)
22:12 -!- Maqui [shadowirc at 62.255.73.110] has quit [Quit: ShadowIRC 1.1b2 PPC]
22:13 < ana> ok we're done?
22:13 <@pault> i think so
22:13 < ana> i'm pretty happy how this worked out..
22:13 <@chip_scooter> cool
22:13 <@vince> yep, good meeting
22:13 <@vince> bravo � tous! :-)
22:14 <@pault> origami all round
22:14 < ana> si!
22:14 < ana> some charitative soul please send me logs...
22:14 <@chip_scooter> oregano all round...
22:14 <@pault> ana: i will
22:14 <@chrisc> logs to emg list?
22:14 < ana> thanks :-)
===============================================
pault
--
pault <mailto:pault at burngreave.net>
<http://www.burngreave.net/~pault/>
also <mailto:pault at rising7.com>
<http://www.rising7.com/>
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